Amano Shrimp question already searched as requested.

[Ravenz]

A question for you shrimpy folk? I have been keeping Amano Shrimp for a while now and have done my research and kept them very happily in a tank with just them and also a tank with them and other fish. However, My question which I can not find a precise answer to is as follows..
The topic over the salt water required for the succesfull breeding > fully formed shrimp. Now it has been stated that it can not be done without salt water as they originaly came from salt water and so therefore still require it at a certain stage of there lifecycle.
There are also many folk that state, Claim that they have bred without the addition of the salt yet this has been rubbished outright and in fact they may as well get burnt as a witch at the stake. So I having searched around many forums regarding shrimp came to this one as it stood out as quite a knowledgable site with some good people on it ask you what evidence do you actualy require that its indeed possible to breed them without any trace of salt water and only Amano shrimp in the tank and none of them being pregnant or ladden with eggs prior to special occasion.

[Ravenz]

As I notice 13 folk have looked at this post and no-one has replied. It would appear that none of you are willing to admit that Amano Shrimp can and will breed and live to maturity in plain old water. Ok so let me ask you another question then.

Bearing in mind that I have done geneology and verterinary studies. The chances of more than one type ( read sub species if you will ) of Amano shrimp being in Japan, Korea, Taiwan- roughly the general area they came from. Now evolution and time scales involved taken into account there is a very good chance of some Amano Shrimp have adapted to suit its inviroment and bred out / evolved that they do not need the salt water in the larvae stage.

[Newjohn]

Ravenz
Hello and Welcome to the Forum

The first item would be of the Adult Shrimp. There are Shrimp that are collected with the Amano Shrimp that look similar.
This is just to make sure that they are Amano Shrimp.

Pictures of the Larva at different stages of developement.
I know that this can be difficult because of there size.

Pictures of the fully developed Shrimp.

I know that other members might have a few more suggestions

I am presently attemping to raise the Larva of Amano Shrimp. I have a few that are 16 days old that are in Salt Water.

The Larva will survive in Fresh water for awhile. I kept some of them in the Fresh water tank and they lived for 8 days before I could not find them.

John

[Newjohn]

Ravenz

Just because 13 People looked at your thread does not mean that they have any information to give.

It is better to say nothing
If you have nothing to say
John

[Ravenz]

I had something to say another scenario in fact. It just comes across that there are 75% of folk that are not willing to allow into argument the fact that one species may have more than one sub species that has lived in one area long enough to breed out the need for salt water even though its still an Amano Shrimp thats all. And having read some of the posts where folk have stated they have done so are shot down in in quick posts. That is all. I am not trolling or flaming just asking some questions of which there have not been any reasonable replies in the search function.

[Newjohn]

Most of the post here claiming that they have bred Amano's in fresh water give no other information.

The information that is given is like.
I have One Amano Shrimp that is alot smaller than the rest, so they must have bred.
I bought Amano Shrimp 1 week ago and now have Babies.

Since this Hobby is still somewhat young.
And the mortality rates of Imported Shrimp is so high.
That the exporters have depleated a Species in there normal collecting sites and had to find other areas to collect.
And that most of the Shrimp Species / Sub-Species have not been Identified.
There is still a chance that there could be a Amano Shrimp that can be Bred and Raised in Fresh Water.

But without evidence to support the claim, such as pictures of the
Adults, Larva, Post Larva.
And a little back ground, like I used ??? method or I read this scientific paper and tried ???

And without any of the above.
It just looks like someone is trying to get the 5 minutes of fame.

Just My Thoughts and Observations
John

[Newjohn]

Ravenz wrote

Bearing in mind that I have done geneology and verterinary studies

In your studies, you had to read countless hours of books and articles and if these were written like some of the other post about Amano Breeing in fresh water.
I would not want you work on any of my Animals.

Without information to back up your claim, no one will believe it.

John

[TKD]

Anyone want to bet how long this guy will last???

TKD

[Newjohn]

TKD

Ravenz
Is asking thought out questions and making statements that make sense.

They are not statements like

Look what I did, I am the first to , and so on, like several others have done in the past.

John

[badflash]

Ravenz,

I can tell you from personal experience keeping the zoes alive for 30 days, that they require salt water to survive. The adults can not survive in salt water. Within about a week the larva must get into full sea water to survive.

While there are loads of stories about amaonos breeding in fresh water, there is not a single one that can back up the story with even the slightest shred of evidence. When you ask them to put up or shut up, they shut up every time, or else they start calling names.

Two members of this board have bred the larva in salt water and have the pictures and the young shrimp to prove it.

As to the possibilty of a species looking like an amano breeding in fresh water? Quite possible, but it would not be an amano, and no one has yet to find one. It also would not be a sub-species. Animals that require that different of the life cycle could never interbreed and prosuce fertile offspring, which is a requirement for it to be a sub-species.

If you get some zoes, keep them in fresh water for a week or so. If there are any alive after that, you will be seeing something no one else has ever seen.

[Newjohn]

What is the Scientific definition of a Sub-Species.
I have no Scientific back ground besides the nature channel.

My understanding is that a sub-species is one that has adapted differently from the parent species because of climate change or location.

John

[YuccaPatrol]

Newjohn, you are right on track with your definition of a subspecies as a population which has been separated from the parent species by geographic or other barriers. Biologists argue a LOT about the definition of a species. Some want a new species description for every slight variation, while others want to lump lots of very similar populations into one big species complex.

Ravenz,

You claim to have done "geneology" and veterinary studies. I'm not sure what you mean, as genealogy (correctly spelled) is the study of human family ancestry. "Veterinary studies" implies the study of animal medicine. Neither of these would be ideal subjects which would lead you to a better understanding of crustacean genetics or taxonomy, and you may want to continue your studies further.

But to answer your question, there would be two simple ways to provide proof of an "Amano" shrimp which is capable of breeding in fresh water.

1) Provide a reference to a published scientific paper describing a new species/sub-species of Caridina multidentata/japonica which is capable of breeding completely in freshwater.

2) If you are someone who has been successfully breeding these shrimp in freshwater, you would certainly have an excess of juveniles which you could send to several known successful shrimp breeders here on this forum. These people would be able to easily back up your claims when their "Amanos" reproduced just as you claim they do.

[Mustafa]

As I notice 13 folk have looked at this post and no-one has replied. It would appear that none of you are willing to admit that Amano Shrimp can and will breed and live to maturity in plain old water. Ok so let me ask you another question then.

Now it has been stated that it can not be done without salt water as they originaly came from salt water and so therefore still require it at a certain stage of there lifecycle.

A question for you shrimpy folk?

There are also many folk that state, Claim that they have bred without the addition of the salt yet this has been rubbished outright and in fact they may as well get burnt as a witch at the stake.

Why do all these newbies think they can come in here with this kind of, less than desirable, "I know it better" attitude, criticize everyone (including me and how I run my forum), don't read any of the threads about breeding these shrimp (especially the ones with freshwater breeding claims) properly (or carefully), provide absolutely no proof of their arguments, DEMAND replies within a couple of hours on a SUNDAY MORNING, complain if they still haven't gotten any replies to their ridiculously worded, unresearched posts, AND think that they are going to be welcome and taken seriously (especially if they feel the need to back up their weak and unresearched arguments with such incredibly irrelevant and vague "credentials" like "background in genealogy and veterinary studies")? Not only is this individual breaking a rule right away with his/her first appearance in the forum ("It just comes across that there are 75% of folk that are not willing to allow into argument..." or "There are also many folk that state, Claim that they have bred without the addition of the salt yet this has been rubbished outright and in fact they may as well get burnt as a witch at the stake.") by criticizing how the forum is run, but he/she is also showing more than enough evidence that no significant research was done. Such people are just wasting everyone's time (especially mine), just like all the other newbies that came in here with similar groundless claims/arguments.

Nobody (at least not me) has claimed that it's *absolutely impossible* that there may be a population of Amano shrimp that has larvae that can complete their development to postlarvae in freshwater. However, that is, up to this point, pure, unqualified speculation. That's why it was stated many times before in this forum that PROOF is needed if someone makes a claim about breeding Amano shrimp in freshwater. This is a scientifically oriented forum and claims without evidence, and instructions to reproduce such claims, are not welcome here. Until a claim can be reproduced, it is just a claim/theory. Such a claim carries more weight if someone with *verifiable* credentials/experience makes such a claim, but it will still remain just a claim without any evidence provided (and so far only newbies/less than knowledgeable people/"false experts" have made the Amano-freshwater-breeding claim). As everyone in the world, who has actually bred these shrimp (and provided evidence obviously), has required saltwater to do so, it would seem that SO FAR the claim/theory that Amano shrimp can complete their life cycle in pure freshwater has not been proven, and one could actually say that it has been disproved. So the current, accepted "theory" is that Amano shrimp require saltwater for their larvae to develop into postlarvae.

If someone makes a claim that goes against the accepted theory, the burden of proof lies on the person making the new, so far unsubstantiated, claim. It's not the other way around. We don't have to disprove such a new claim, as there is no proof of its existence to begin with. If science were as this individual wants it to be, then anyone could just claim anything, without providing any evidence whatsoever, and we would have to accept it until WE disprove it. Am I the only one who sees the ridiculousness of this?

In any case...as this person already comes in with a bad attitude and manages to break a rule, actually two rules if one counts his/her poor research, he/she will be banned outright. This waste of time topic is closed.

Thanks to everyone else for trying to enlighten this person.