Bumblebee Color Variation Questions - Updated!

[GunmetalBlue]

By the way, if you have any drift wood or similar tannin releasing organic materials in your tank, remove them immediately. Most acid water shrimp do not seem to like tannins in their water and their hatchlings die immediately.

Nothing extra in the tank except my low-tech type plants. Hmmm, what you say comes as a surprise because traditionally, one equates tannins with soft-water species tanks.

--Hehe...I've driven California roads many times before, including southern california roads. Not that bad compared to other places at which I have driven a car: Mexico, Jamaica, Turkey...can you say crater sized potholes and cars passing you left and right on a two lane street with oncoming traffic? LOL So, I think I'll be happy on Souther California roads.

Mexico ... can you say Road Warrior time? And imagine my horror at a busy, non-marked intersection with no traffic lights or stop signs where apparently, whoever has the most hair just goes for it. BTW, "Crater-sized potholes" insinuates (at least to me) there actually is a paved road . Jamaica I understand, drives on the left side of the road - that can't be easy to get used to. But you know what? No matter where it happens to be, the thing I fear and will try to avoid at all costs are traffic circles. Those things are synonymous with insanity!

Either way, imported shrimp are no competition whatsoever to captive bred ones, so I don't consider them competition. I'm in the business of selling top healthy shrimp and back it up with a live arrival guarantee, not in the business of importing half-dead shrimp and trying to sell them off before they all die on me. So, we are in two completely different industries.

That's going to take educating the public, as they won't make the distinction. Many one-timers will get shrimp from say, a giant chain store, have a bad experience, think it's their fault (they'll only be partially to blame at this point), and never get shrimp again. Those who become hooked though, and want to pursue shrimp, hopefully they find the right info and the right way to go about it ... I guess that's where somebody that we both know comes in?

--that's not a bumblebee shrimp though. that just shows you that people are very lax with naming shrimp.

Hmm, really? My mistake then; wonder what it is ...

By the way, the bluish colors you posted of your bumblebees are stress related. I've seen that before but it's so little blue, more of blue shine than a real color, that I never considered calling my bumblebees bluish.

Okay, thanks for you opinion.

Yes, unfortunately that's the case. There are usually more steps involved though. ... Finally the shrimp end up in store tanks. Only a fraction of the shrimp survive and the ones that do survive are in the worst condition imaginable and will most likely die within days or weeks.

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to always see something depressing at petstores, especially the chains - and sadly, the part I see is only a small part of what most of the animals (not just shrimp) has already been through.

Yes, I am the first one. ... Experience really counts and that's my advantage.

Wait, I thought your advantage was a little bit of magic and soothsaying?

Okay then, I'll check back if/when something gets cooking along again. Thanks for your opinions and advice. I have one remaining shrimplet - I believe he/she is going to make it. Although still 1/3 adult size, he/she is old enough to have just as much chance as the adults now, at least I think and hope so.

-GB

[Mustafa]

Nothing extra in the tank except my low-tech type plants. Hmmm, what you say comes as a surprise because traditionally, one equates tannins with soft-water species tanks.

Yes, I know. But shrimp seem to be different from fish in this respect as shrimp seem to need water that is as free of organic compounds as possible. They just want very clean water.

--that's not a bumblebee shrimp though. that just shows you that people are very lax with naming shrimp.

Hmm, really? My mistake then; wonder what it is ...

it looks like a "ninja shrimp" (cardidina serratirostris) to me. But psssst...Frank and the indonesian exporter don't know that..

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to always see something depressing at petstores, especially the chains - and sadly, the part I see is only a small part of what most of the animals (not just shrimp) has already been through.

--It's not just you. The animal trade in general is very sad. Most people that are involved could care less about the animals and don't actually know anything about the animals they are dealing with. It's really sad.

Yes, I am the first one. ... Experience really counts and that's my advantage.

Wait, I thought your advantage was a little bit of magic and soothsaying?

That, too!

Okay then, I'll check back if/when something gets cooking along again. Thanks for your opinions and advice. I have one remaining shrimplet - I believe he/she is going to make it. Although still 1/3 adult size, he/she is old enough to have just as much chance as the adults now, at least I think and hope so.

Ok, keep us updated. Bumblebees are definitely a hard nut to crack.

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi everyone, I'm finally able to update my Bumblebee situation. The reason for not doing so earlier is because in previous attempts at raising them, I was still having shrimplet losses all the way up to the 6-weeks-old mark. So I wanted to be fairly certain I was on the right track before posting. However, I'm realizing that the fact that I was able to lower my pH to help out my current crop of shrimplets is worth mentioning now. I don't have a lot of shrimplets, but the ones I can see are doing well .

To start where I last left off, at the urging of Mustafa, I got myself a reliable pH meter, the Hanna pHep 5 and boy am I glad I did! It reiterated the fact that some of those strip-type test kits were totally useless for me and the drops test kit did not help me much either. Rather, it kept me from knowing what my tank parameter problems were, thereby delaying the working out of those problems.

So on to the problems... they were twofold - for one, I was WAY off the mark as to what my true pH was. Depending on which tank and when tested, my pH meter let me know it ran anywhere from 8.1 - 8.5! Oh, those poor Bumblebees .

Secondly, like some of you living in particular parts of the country (usually urban?), the water company here puts stuff in the water to keep it basic (Mustafa mentions this earlier in the thread and elsewhere). That is why my attempts at diluting the tap water with distilled water failed - it would only bring the pH down temporarily, only to bounce back to exactly where it was, in the next few days. I was told from another source that if I wanted go that route, in order to avoid the bounce-back problem, I'd have to get drinking water from another source (like those vending machines you can find outside of some grocery stores - those are supposed to be 7.0 pH) and NOT put ANY of my tap water in, or I'd be right back to where I started.

Just a side note concerning tap water in our area. I read some time ago that for most of the year, the water comes from reservoirs; however, at other times it comes locally. By that I take it it comes from local mountain streams that get filtered naturally through sediments in those streams (I guess a water table?). I've noted that tap water here, for most of the year is in the 8.0+ range. But I was shocked to discover that in recent weeks/months (winter), it was coming out at a stunning 6.6!!! HOWEVER, it still bounces back to over the 8.0 range within a day of being in the tank (added as part of the weekly WC). I'm not sure if that's attributed to the fact the water company still puts the basic producing stuff in - or because I still have part of my old tap water in there ... probably both, but regardless, it still boils down to "problem."

Okay, so on to solving the problem. I looked at a variety of ways to tackle it, naturally, they all have a learning curve and have their pluses and minuses. Ironically, due to the fact that I'm totally into keeping "simple" shrimp tanks and being a bit of a purist about it, I decided on the route that scared me the most - the muriatic acid (Hcl) method previously mentioned by Mustafa (Thanks so much for the info, Mustafa! Best choice I made, along with getting a proper pH meter). The funny thing is, what actually made me feel okay about deciding to try it is, I read that Hcl is the same thing that's in your stomach - stomach acid. Yeah, go figure why it made feel better about using it - strange female logic? Kidding aside, I guess it made me realize that the concept of acidic and basic are a naturally occurring phenomenon, and that Hcl was the most direct, "pure" way to bring pH down in my tanks (like they say in commercials, "no additives, fillers, yadda yadda"). Not only that, but it gives your precise and complete control - instantly.

Let me say first and foremost that if anyone with a huge pH problem goes this route, it will make things 100% easier if you work everything out first in a tank without inhabitants - if your problems are anything like mine, you will have constant "bounces" of your pH until the acid eats away at the basic and finally settles down to a more manageable level - but at least you can add the acid at your own time schedule. But it can be done to already existing tanks with inhabitants, if you can provide the time and willingness to stick with it. I had to do this with my tanks that had 2 pregnant BB females, which meant that I wanted to approach it slowly and systematically and keep stress to a minimum (that's just my way). Mustafa had earlier mentioned that it's not necessarily bad for them to go to the down side on pH quickly - but my big concern was the radical upswing that would follow. Thus, I went about it in steps.

I kept copious notes writing down pH readings every hour. The bad part was that I had to add a drop every hour, that's how insidious the basic water was for me! I created a "target" and kept to it by applying a drop when it went past a certain point. For example, when I first started, I made my target 8.0 and allowed a .1 fluctuation on either side (between 7.9 - 8.1). So every time it went over 8.0, I would add a drop. Then in the following days, I would reduce my "target" (ie., 7.9 target; range of 7.8 - 8.0) and continued to keep at it. It took me about 9 days of doing this to get it to the point where I only had to apply the occasional drop. Depending on your acid solution (mine was a solution of 10% muriatic acid, 90% water) you'll get a feel for how much one drop of the acid solution produces. Mine was about .07 difference per acid drop in a 10 gal tank. But remember that it can fluctuate depending on other factors, so always take pH readings before and after the drops until you get the complete hang of it. Also, pH rises during lights-on hours so during the initial phase, I kept the lights off when I wasn't home and unable to keep up with the acid drops. Now everything is back to normal schedule; I still check pH at least a couple times a day (especially during lights-on hours) and add a drop if it's over my target, but that's about it. Don't overshoot, especially just before lights-out hours, since during off hours, the pH can subside.

Sorry for the long post! I'll leave it here for now. Next time around, if Mustafa doesn't mind, I'll post the very clear instructions for how to procure and use the muriatic acid he provided. I think he mentions somewhere on the forum that he might want to do a write up on it, but those things can take time. In the meanwhile, I'm sure there are others out there who have major problems getting their pH under control. Now that I have complete control over the pH, I feel like I can keep any kind of shrimp or fish I want, as long as I know what their preferred pH requirements are!

Thanks again, Mustafa.

-GB

[TKD]

Hi GM,

Good to hear that you have the problem mostly solved.

To me though it sounds as if you have something in your tank that is brining the pH up. Like a rock or a decoration.

Anything in the tank that could do that?

TKD

[frugalfish]

But I was shocked to discover that in recent weeks/months (winter), it was coming out at a stunning 6.6!!! HOWEVER, it still bounces back to over the 8.0 range within a day of being in the tank (added as part of the weekly WC). I'm not sure if that's attributed to the fact the water company still puts the basic producing stuff in - or because I still have part of my old tap water in there ... probably both, but regardless, it still boils down to "problem."

Another factor could be existing CO2 in the tap water. Someone may have a better time table, but I let tap water rest 24hrs before testing to allow for gases to escape in order to get a more accurate pH reading.

[Mustafa]

Thanks a lot for the update, GB! I'm glad things are working out. Feel free to elaborate on the muriatic acid method since, as you correctly stated, it might take me a while to get around to writing an article about it.

And no need to apologize for long posts....the more information, the better!

[badflash]

I had a very similar experience, but no problems after a 2 week cycle & battle with the tank. It has been running 6.5 & steady and my make-ups are pure R/O water. I have had no need to add acid since, but I suspect the water may be too soft. I need a TDS target to shoot for, but I have no clue what that would be.

My bamboo shrimps don't seem to like this tank. Same for the bumblebees In the hard water tank they were always out filtering and perching on the rocks. In this tank they just hide except when the lights are out. No one has died, but they seem way too shy.

[Mustafa]

My bamboo shrimps don't seem to like this tank. Same for the bumblebees In the hard water tank they were always out filtering and perching on the rocks. In this tank they just hide except when the lights are out. No one has died, but they seem way too shy.

There may be other reasons for that behavior. It's not necessarily the change in hardness or ph. The tank is totally different and the water parameters, besides ph and conductivity, are totally different. Try to eliminate all other factors before concluding that the change in ph or conductivity are the reason why your shrimp are not doing well.

[GunmetalBlue]

Instructions for using muriatic acid by Mustafa:

"You should be able to find it at most hardware stores. Ask them for "Muriatic Acid." It costs about $3-$5 per gallon and comes at a 34% concentration. That should last you a decade or so if not more. You have to mix it about 1:2 with water, in other words 2 parts water and one part acid. So, take a bottle and fill it with 2/3 water (you can use tap water but distilled water makes the solution "purer"), then pour 1/3 acid in there. Close the lid, shake it. Done. Now you have a ca. 10% solution. You can now fill a little dropper bottle with that 10% solution and start treating either the change water or the tank directly with drops of acid. Start with a drop or two and see how much of a ph change it causes in the water after it mixes in. Adjust accordingly until you reach your target ph. Done. Check every day to see if the ph is going up (which could happen if something in your tank is increasing alkalinity of your water).

When you use it in your tank directly make sure that you place the drops in the filter outflow so the acid mixes with the water right away.

Make sure that you do all the mixing outside so that little spills etc. do not ruin your carpet or whatever else you might have lying around in your home. Plus, the acid fumes won't accumulate in your house this way. If you get any acid on your hand, don't panic (it won't cause a hole or anyting). Just rinse it off with water. You might want to use some plastic gloves anyway. If you need to neutralize acid that gets spilled just sprinkle baking soda on it until it stops fuzzing before you clean it up. Baking soda neutralizes acids. Make sure that you do not directly inhale the fumes of the 34% muriatic acid. It's quite irritating. The 10% solution does not fume although you should not directly stick your nose in there either.

Oh yeah, get yourself a funnel to fill up the bottle for mixing the acid if you do not already have one. Also, instead of directly pouring out of the huge gallon bottle, it might be easier to have something like a huge sringe or turkey baster to transfer the acid out of the big bottle into the little one.

...I was a little scared about the acid, too, but now that I am using it I am so glad that I went that direction. All my acid water shrimp are reproducing and their offspring are surviging and doing well just fine. The good thing is that the 10% solution that you mix will last you a very, very long time, so you do not have to mix anything again for at least a year or two depending on the size of the bottle you are using."

[milalic]

This sounds good...how low did you went in PH? I see it took you 9 days. I am a little worried because I am in texas. I have been able to breed the bumble bee and my CRS in hard water with ph at 7.4-7.5 without any visible problems. Having maybe a lower PH might help, but I am not sure.
What if I start doing small water changes and using the muriatic acid in this water?Would you see a problem with this?

Thanks

[GunmetalBlue]

[Edit: Milalic, we ninja posted and I missed your question - I'll try to get to it next time.]

I found Mustafa's instructions extremely helpful and self-explanatory but any questions are welcome. Before embarking on the project, I printed it out and read it several times to make sure I fully understood it.

1.) A reliable pH reader is absolutely necessary to go the muriatic acid route. If you get something like the pHep 5, you'll also need to get buffer solutions to calibrate your instument; recommended is the 7.01 and the 4.01 solutions for a two point calibration.

2.) I would highly recommend printing out or writing a poison label warning to tape to the acid bottle. If you have young children running around, use extreme caution to make sure it's out of reach. Here's my bottle; on left, the premixed 10% muriatic acid; on right, the bottle dropper for convenient daily usage:


3.) No two tanks and water parameter situations are alike. If your tank water pH keeps bouncing back up, you'll have to really stick with it for a week or two to make progress.

To me though it sounds as if you have something in your tank that is brining the pH up. Like a rock or a decoration.

Anything in the tank that could do that?

Hi TKD, of course that's always possible but highly unlikely; this phenomenon takes place in all my tanks. I'm pretty aware of using only inert items. I have 3 different kinds/brand of inert subtrate, each in different tanks, so I doubt all 3 brands are causing problems. As to decorations, in some, not all of the tanks, I use only quartz, river pebble or lava rock. Everything else is just moss/plants and plastic items. I believe the problem has to do with what the city puts in the water. Also perhaps, it just naturally takes time for the acid to battle with the akaline until the acidic wins out. Whatever is going on, Badflash's, Mustafa's and my water seems to be similar in that regard.

Another factor could be existing CO2 in the tap water. Someone may have a better time table, but I let tap water rest 24hrs before testing to allow for gases to escape in order to get a more accurate pH reading.

Yes, my WC water is drawn the evening before. I also measure the next day before the WC. It may not be 24 hours and it probably does changes some, but I wouldn't think tap water in the 6's would jump to the 8's. The current lower number may be related to the city switching between water sources. This whole pH rebound thing is very strange and seems inexplicable; it seems as if the tap water needs something to react to, ie., being in a tank where there are numerous other, for a lack of better word, particulates, then it rebounds. But I'm just thinking out loud, I really don't understand the mechanics of it. Hopefully, as time goes on, more people will talk about it and discuss their experiences and knowledge.

I had a very similar experience, but no problems after a 2 week cycle & battle with the tank. It has been running 6.5 & steady and my make-ups are pure R/O water. I have had no need to add acid since, but I suspect the water may be too soft. I need a TDS target to shoot for, but I have no clue what that would be.

I did read your thread some time ago and am looking forward to hearing of any new developments, ie., BB's or Bamboo getting pregnant/having babies . It was wise of you to battle the pH on a new tank. It can be worrisome on an established tank but since most people have established tanks, I can say that if one can give it the initial time and attention to detail in the first few weeks, it's well worth it. The acid, once diluted and mixed into the tank water, seems to simply be water with a lower pH, nothing more. Like I mentioned earlier, I even did this in a tank with pregnant females, and they did not drop their eggs.

Time to share a few pics ... pregnant female, 1 week before eggs hatched.


Hard to believe there was still a week to go, these eggs look near ready ...


I was surprised and delighted to see 9 shrimplets today, the ones that were born last week are starting to come out of the woodwork . The older ones are now almost 4 weeks old. Pic on the left, taken of a shrimplet at 18 days old; the one on right, at 24 days old:


-GB

[frugalfish]

Nice write ups and pictures GB.

[GunmetalBlue]

Thanks Frugalfish .

This sounds good...how low did you went in PH? I see it took you 9 days. I am a little worried because I am in texas. I have been able to breed the bumble bee and my CRS in hard water with ph at 7.4-7.5 without any visible problems. Having maybe a lower PH might help, but I am not sure.

The current pH target in my BB breeding tank is 6.8, so anytime it gets near 6.9, I give it a drop of acid. Maybe if Mustafa has a comment on your pH level for breeding, he could chime in.

What if I start doing small water changes and using the muriatic acid in this water?Would you see a problem with this?

Unfortunately, there's no way for me to know how your water will behave, but in my opinion it sounds like a temporary fix - for instance, in my case, it would be a VERY temporary fix, as in 1 hour and it would be back to where it was. I'm thinking even in better circumstances, alkaline tends to like to stay alkaline, so the acid will work on it for a little while until it gets "used up," then it would be back to alkaline unless you were to stick with it in the initial phases until it gets balanced out. But again, I can only go by what my experiences were, others may be different. If you try it, let us know how it goes.

Here's how I look at it, if one were to go the muriatic acid route, they've ideally already put a "toolkit" together (a reliable pH meter, a pre-mixed 10% solution of muriatic acid). At that point, there's no reason not to follow through and work on getting and keeping one's pH in the range of their choosing .

-GB

[Mustafa]

Thanks for everything GB, including the pics and update. One thing that is extremely important but was left out is that one needs to start with RO water for the acid method to work economically. If you don't have an RO unit, then you can buy purified water and mix it with your tap water at a 9:1 or 9.5:1 ratio (with the "1" being the tap water) and then start the acid treatment, although buying water will become *very* expensive after a while.

Otherwise people would be adding acid all day long every day. What the acid does is eat up the alkalinity in the water. If your water supply has a lot of alkalinity, then it takes a ton of acid to get rid of it. And chances are that the tank is due for a water change before you have even reached your ph target.

I don't use RO water because my water supply is as close to RO water as can get with regards to conductivity/TDS. The conductivity of my tap water is usually around 90 microsiemens/cm (approximately 45 ppm TDS). Normal RO water usually has a conductivity between 5 to 50 microsiemens/cm (approximately 2.5 to 25 PPM). My kh is 0 out of the tap but there is sodium hydroxide in my water supply (added by the city) which makes up my alkalinity. So, the acid eats away at the sodium hydroxide.

Also...although GB is very careful about taking down the ph I have not seen any adverse effects when taking down the ph faster. For example, I can drop the ph from 7 to 6.2 immediately. Then I make microadjustments as the ph bounces back a little until the bouncing stops. Keep in mind, however, that you should only use the "immediate" method once you have gained some experience with the acid. Otherwise you will overshoot your ph target for sure. And by "overshoot" I don't mean by a little bit, but but a whole lot. Once there is no alkalinity left in the water even a drop or two can take your ph down to below 5 or even lower. Such a sudden change is not good. SO BE VERY CAREFUL!

Anyway, just wanted to make sure that people with "concrete" water don't go out and try to dump tons of acid in their water.

@milalic
I would highly recommend getting the phep5 ph meter (or something comparable in quality). Before that you really do not know what your ph is. That's how bad the current tests (even the liquid tests) are. Having said that, a few young can and do survive in alkaline water once in a while, but unless about 90-100% of the eggs hatch and that many young actually grow up I would not really call it "breeding." Unless your population is getting steadily bigger and you are literally forced to either sell or give away some of your shrimp to avoid overpopulation, you are not being successful with a given species. So, in your case I would recommend an RO unit as Texas water has (as far as I know) high conductivity.

DISCLAIMER TO EVERYONE: Only use the acid method if you feel comfortable with it and know that you are not "clumsy" and will most likely spill it all over you or dump half of the bottle in the tank and kill your shrimp. I will not take any responsibility for any damages to yourself, anyone around you, your pets or your property.

[milalic]

I will get a water report from the city...and see. I have low measurable KH. I just recently started with the bumble bee and it is very hard to see the babies in the driftwood. I did manage to breed in the hundreds snowball shrimp in the same tank as well as dwarf crays.

Thanks