Bumblebee Color Variation Questions - Updated!

[badflash]

R/O units are not all that expensive. I got mine last year for $200 including the holding tank. You need to replace the membrane and pre-filters about once a year and that costs around $30. The unit I have is rated 30 gallon a day but I never come close to using that much. Watch out for the home depot ones as they are only 10 gpd. Get the biggest helding tank you have room for because when the tank runs out you have to wait. Mine stops at 1.5 gallons.

I often put a 5 gallon bucket under the tap and leave the tap open for the morning or afternoon to to a large amount.

[milalic]

need to find out how this R/O units work and what else do I need to get if I buy one.

[badflash]

They are simply a very special filter that allows only very pure water through. To do this they throw away 10 gallons for everyy 1 gallon of pure water they make. They are easy to buy and easy to install if you have basic plumbing skills. 30 GPD is plenty of capacity for the hobiest. Probably 10 would be good for most. Get a big storage tank. The larger the capacity, the more often you must replace it.

[GunmetalBlue]

Thanks for everything GB, including the pics and update.

Mustafa, you're quite welcome; however, all the thanks goes to YOU; if not for your instructions, I wouldn't be enjoying my present crew of shrimplets. Rather, I'd be watching them dying off one by one. Instead, I'm finding more . Why, I'm even beginning to have the first twinges of fear about the "P" word (population explosion) .

There is absolutely a correlation between high pH and low birth/survival rate for these shrimp (along with those other factors - lower temp, clean water, etc.). Back when I was unknowingly still in the 8's, I managed 1 shrimplet that reached adulthood. Thinking back, that in itself comes as a surprise, he is one tough little guy.

Now, the ones born a month ago did not have the benefit of being born in low pH; I had just started on my project and was at 7.9 pH at the time, though working my way down. I have about 3 surviving shrimplets from that batch. Then finally, the ones that were born last week had the benefit of being born under 7.0 pH. I'm seeing at least 10 shrimplets and there may be a few more. Considering the mom was carrying only about 15 eggs, I can say the survival rate so far is very positive. If I were to get any losses, it would most likely be other factors, not sky high pH.

Back on topic to color variations, I'm curious to see what the babies will look like as juvies. I can't wait to try out my new camera (Nikon D70s). However, I'm still on a waiting list to get a "just out" lens for it; until then, can't play with the new toy .

-GB

[frugalfish]

Mustafa, you're quite welcome; however, all the thanks goes to YOU; if not for your instructions, I wouldn't be enjoying my present crew of shrimplets. Rather, I'd be watching them dying off one by one. Instead, I'm finding more .

Ah, the rewards of getting "real" advice and information.

Why, I'm even beginning to have the first twinges of fear about the "P" word (population explosion) .

Oh, I'm sure there are some individuals that would help you out with that problem, so twinge away.

I can't wait to try out my new camera (Nikon D70s). However, I'm still on a waiting list to get a "just out" lens for it; until then, can't play with the new toy .

That's a really nice camera for taking aquarium pictures. You already take nice shots with your present camera, but I can't wait to see the ones you take with that bad boy.

[Mustafa]

Mustafa, you're quite welcome; however, all the thanks goes to YOU; if not for your instructions, I wouldn't be enjoying my present crew of shrimplets. Rather, I'd be watching them dying off one by one. Instead, I'm finding more .

If one is really interested in advancing a hobby, as I am, then one makes sure that everyone in the hobby is successful. This way the hobby will grow and prosper. There are actually some breeders in Germany, and I am sure in Japan, too, who won't tell other people what their water parameters are, what they are feeding etc. etc...nothing. They are afraid that others will start breeding the shrimp and will compete with them. They are absolutely content selling shrimp to people who have no clue how to keep and breed them and who come back for more once their current shrimp die off (which happens pretty quickly). This does absolutely nothing for the hobby. The "funny" thing is that sharing information will actually be more "profitable" because as people get more successful at keeping and breeding shrimp they want to get different varieties of shrimp and also recommend the hobby to others. The hobby grows and everyone wins! But try to explain this to the short-term, quick-buck thinkers.... I could just as well cheaply import and sell thousands of half-dead shrimp for a quick buck, but would that help grow the hobby? Absolutely not.... Hence, I have chosen my current path and prefer sharing information.

Why, I'm even beginning to have the first twinges of fear about the "P" word (population explosion) .

Let's hope it happens. We need some established captive-bred populations of these shrimp out there.

Back on topic to color variations, I'm curious to see what the babies will look like as juvies.

Yes, I am curious about that, too. Keep this thread supplied with new pictures to that end. It's also interesting enough to see that all the black-head-V-neck bumblebee related shrimp already carry that color pattern as newborns whereas the white-head bumblebee related shrimp already have a white head right after hatching. The current bumblee in your picture looks almost like a hybrid as it has some bee-shrimp-like markings on the lower part of its abdomen, but it's impossible to say for sure. I will have to deliberately conduct some hybridization experiments in the future to clarify this issue. I've already done that with the bee and tiger shrimp and there is absolutely no doubt that both species hybridize...but I have not conducted any experiments with bumblebees yet.

I can't wait to try out my new camera (Nikon D70s). However, I'm still on a waiting list to get a "just out" lens for it; until then, can't play with the new toy .

Wow...congrats...that's a great camera! I was between buying that camera, and the two canons (EOS 350D and 20/30D) and went for the EOS 350D for various reasons. Either way, a good digital SLR with a dedicated macro lens seems to be an absolute neccessity for aquarium photography in the long run. I have a MUCH higher percentage of "keepers" among the many shots I make and the pictures are crystal clear, even without an external flash and very dim, non-natural lighting. Looking forward to seeing your pictures once you have the new lens.

Take care,
Mustafa

[Newjohn]

GunmetalBlue & anyone else that post in this thread

How are the bumbleBee's Doing ?

The color variation are vary interesting.

It must depend on the collection area's.

I know people who are into Killies and Live bearers.
The color can vary alot from Water hole to water hole, even if the are located close together.
Or, they vary color in different parts of the same stream.

As the Shrimp Hobby Grows, hopefuly we will be able to have collection sites of the Shrimp. So it will be possible to keep the different color Strains
as natural as possible.

John

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi John - sorry for such a late reply - I was hoping to be further along on my Bumblebee progress, but hit some speed bumps along the way. So ... I'll just update where I'm at right now. It was kind of you to ask, thanks . Wow, was it all the way back in April that I last posted here? Gee how time flies!

I had ended up with about 26 Bumblebee offspring before my store-bought adults passed on - considering their circumstances (imported, storebought, then living with me who has less than ideal conditions), they did okay, and probably lived a little over a year; I had gotten them when they were already mature.

Unfortunately in the last two weeks, things went south and I lost at least 8 of the offspring ... ouch. Thankfully, things are back under control and everything is holding steady. The offspring are already sexually mature and have had eggs, but they are dropping them except for 1 - 4 eggs. So I am still waiting to see if I can manage getting a second generation going. I only have about 4 females right now (had a very unusual ratio of males to females!); hopefully these females will hang in there and do better with their eggs, the next time around.

So how is everyone else's Bumblebees doing? Anyone getting a good generation or two of offspring? Any experiences (good or bad) or observations to share? Am I the only one having a slow time of it and everyone else is "breeding them like crazy?" lol.

Back on topic to color variations, I'm curious to see what the babies will look like as juvies.

Yes, I am curious about that, too. Keep this thread supplied with new pictures to that end. ... The current bumblee in your picture looks almost like a hybrid as it has some bee-shrimp-like markings on the lower part of its abdomen, but it's impossible to say for sure. I will have to deliberately conduct some hybridization experiments in the future to clarify this issue. I've already done that with the bee and tiger shrimp and there is absolutely no doubt that both species hybridize...but I have not conducted any experiments with bumblebees yet.

I would be extremely interested to see what the results are, if/when you get a chance to experiment for a Bee and Bumblebee (black-headed) combo. So I'll leave some offspring pictures here to that end, for future comparison purposes. If they are Bumblebee/Bee hybrids, it's just as well that they are mine, since I don't sell/exchange shrimp. And sorry it took so long for me, getting around to doing this, Mustafa; they are hard for me to take decent pictures of, they don't photograph well off the dark substrate (Unlike RCS). I have to wait for them to get on a leaf and they are quick.

Here are some Bumblebees with the three dark stripes on the band on the lower abdomen near their tail ... and something to note is that if you go back to the first page, some of the shrimp in the original first batch with which I opened this topic, had the three dark stripes too. Also interesting to note is that the "hooks" at the bottom hook forward, unlike bee shrimp, which tend to hook back.








Here are the ones with two stripes on the band on the lower abdomen near their tail. Incidentally, I only ended up with one offspring that had more or less a solid band like the father, I lost him though.






As to the females, all of mine have three dark stripes on that part of the abdomen, just like their mother had, and are rather plain. Here's a typical female; their head often does not show the first light stripe.




Although I do have a female that's a little more interestingly patterned/colored:




And finally, although not the best, something I've been practicing ... because hey, what's a post without a flying shrimp or two?






Mustafa, I've got some questions for you. I know that ID's are more accurate if parts are studied under a microscope and compared to journal descriptions ... I'm wondering, even then, wouldn't it be difficult to tell if a shrimp is a hybrid if the resulting shrimp looks more specifically like the one species of shrimp, rather than the other? In other words, that the offspring does not "form" a "new-looking" species, but looks more like one than the other? Hard to describe what I'm trying to say . Also, I have been thinking lately that the Bee and Bumblebee are more closely related than what I might have thought at first, or at least, that there are much more varieties of Bumblebees than first thought - do you have any updated opinions one way or the other? Lastly, have you heard any reports of CRS and the White-headed Bumblebees being interbred?

-GB

[Newjohn]

GB

WOW,
Nice Pictures,
How did you train them to Fly

As to Bee's and Bumble Bee's.
I finaly got my hands a 4.
They have been in my tank for 2 days. It might be awhile before I can give any information.

John

[Neonshrimp]

Great pictures! I can relate as I have a few bees in my shrimp tank and they are one of my favorite shrimp.

NewJohn, best wishes on your new bees and bumble bees. Remember they like cooler temperatures and clear/clean waters, as I learned the hard way.

[GunmetalBlue]

Thanks for your comments, John & Neonshrimp. John, what 4 did you get, Bees or Bumblebees? I too, hope they do well for you. Then everyone can pick your brain for info about them.

How did you train them to Fly

Oh, didn't you know? I've started a traveling shrimp circus - I'll be sure and let you know when we're coming to your town!

[Newjohn]

The Wholesalers list said Bee.
I will have to wait , for them to color up.
And post a picture

John

[Mustafa]

Thanks for the update, GB! I actually like your all dark females...there is some great potential in that female of becoming the progenitor of an all black/brown line of "bumblebees" if bred selectively.

So how is everyone else's Bumblebees doing? Anyone getting a good generation or two of offspring? Any experiences (good or bad) or observations to share? Am I the only one having a slow time of it and everyone else is "breeding them like crazy?" lol.

Nobody is breeding these guys like crazy. Part of the reason is that it's extremely hard to get quality animals (as all of them are imports right now), so most people don't even get to the breeding part. They have trouble keeping these guys alive. Once a stable captive population exists, offspring from this population could be distributed in the hobby. Those offspring should be much more suitable for the aquarium hobby than the wild-caught animals. I've had several populations of these shrimp going...including several generations, but once something goes wrong in their environment they die off like flies...one by one. I'm at a stage right now, where I could breed these shrimp in larger numbers...but I have to find some quality animals to start another population again. They are definitely worth it.

By the way....noticed that most people who claim that their bumblebee shrimp "breed like crazy" in all kinds of forums either stop posting after a while or, when asked what happened to their shrimp, tell you they had some kind of "heater problem", outage etc. that killed their shrimp? For some reason most people love to talk about their lucky successes but don't like admitting their failures. They don't look at it as a hobby with ups and downs. People seem to look at failures as personal failures (which they are not)...hence the reluctance to admit them. That's why you hear more reports of "successes", however short lived, than failures.

Also interesting to note is that the "hooks" at the bottom hook forward, unlike bee shrimp, which tend to hook back.

Very good observation.

Mustafa, I've got some questions for you. I know that ID's are more accurate if parts are studied under a microscope and compared to journal descriptions ...

Yeah...that's the traditional claim. I personally favor genetic analysis to figure out species and the relations between species. Physical taxonomy has many flaws and is wide open to interpretation.

I'm wondering, even then, wouldn't it be difficult to tell if a shrimp is a hybrid if the resulting shrimp looks more specifically like the one species of shrimp, rather than the other? In other words, that the offspring does not "form" a "new-looking" species, but looks more like one than the other? Hard to describe what I'm trying to say

.

I understand. Yes, it could be very difficult to tell if a shrimp is a hybrid without having initiated the hybridization project yourself. Many species are highly variable both in physical traits and coloration, so it would be hard to tell the difference between just intraspecific variation (i.e. variation between the individuals within the same species) and features caused by hybridization. I can also imagine that hybrids might have physical features that could be confused with closely related species, even if those related species are not the two parent species of the hybrids.

Also, I have been thinking lately that the Bee and Bumblebee are more closely related than what I might have thought at first, or at least, that there are much more varieties of Bumblebees than first thought - do you have any updated opinions one way or the other?

No updated opinions. I can't tell yet how closely the bee and the various bumblebees are related. Genetic analysis and/or hybridization experiments could spread some light. I do have some updated pictures of various bumblebee variations in the bumblebee species description, though...check them out.

Lastly, have you heard any reports of CRS and the White-headed Bumblebees being interbred?

I've only heard of one case from Austria, where it was only *suspected* that a shrimp variety in someone's tank was a bumblebee-bee hybrid. There was no way of knowing for sure, as the owner of the shrimp did not hybridize bees and bumblebees, but bought her animals from a store.

I am currently testing the theory with this beautiful bumblebee:



This picture is pretty old. Her colors are much more intense now..the dark is almost pitch black and the white is very solid, bright white extending all the way down to her pleopods. I've had her for about 5 months. She is the only survivor out of 15 doomed, imported and badly shipped bumblebee shrimp, which all died within a few days to a week after they arrived (except the shrimp above of course). She is in a tank with crystal reds right now and I'll have to see if she will ever carry eggs and produce any offspring. If she does...then that means that they can hybridize...if she doesn't...then more experiments are necessary as various factors might contribute to her not carrying any viable eggs.

[frugalfish]

Mustafa, I just purchased some more of those bumblebee's like the one pictured in your reply. I have tried them twice before, but all have died one by one over a short time. Currently my attempt is to leave them in the same water conditions (hard, high pH) as they have been kept in at the stores and wholesalers locally and then worry about changing their envronment later. Idea is to not cause further stress form fluctuating water parameters and hopefully let them strengthen up and recover form their ordeals. Some have lighter colored bands, but others look like the higher grade CRS with nice bright white and dark striping. Fingers crossed on this recent batch.

[Neonshrimp]

Best wishes on the new batch. How did you acclimate them to their new tank? Please post a picture if you can.

Thanks