Shrimp larvea and bristlenoses

[mikedmatthews]

so i really didn't think anything of it at the time, but i have three small bristlenoses in a tank i was using to raise up some macrobrachium lanchesteri larvea and the larvea dissappeared. i haven't seen the bristlers go for high order babies, but i do see them eat brine shrimp when i feed it to my tanks. has anyone else out there had a negative experience with them? think i'll move them before the next ry regardless.

[Guba]

Hi Mike, small sucker mouth catfish seem to need more protein than larger speicies. And fry need even more protein. Shrimp larvae molt more often and seem to give off an attractive "smell" after they molt, so it's possable that they were eaten by bristlenoses before the shell hardened. Gotta remember that even though they're suckermouths, they're still catfish. Good luck for your next try!

Joe

[mikedmatthews]

i figured as much. she hasn't berried again yet. these guys are pretty fragile. i got them out of a feeder tank, probably had all sorts of health issues when i got them. bought 6 in march and only three have made it this far.

[Mustafa]

Bristlenose catfish are entirely vegetarian and don't hunt down small organisms. Larvae can "disappear" because they simply die due to "bad" water parameters. Now, when I say "bad" it could just be higher nitrates with which the fish (and probably the adult shrimp) are absolutely fine, but the larvae aren't. Larvae are a lot more sensitive than adult shrimp and fish.

By the way "high order" or "low order" are not really terms used in the hobby or in scientific literature. Those terms originate from singapore and their english language forums. They must have just literally translated these terms from their own language into English. English is not their mother tongue, so there is no reason for us to perpetuate and spread these terms. There is nothing "high" or "low" about the number of larval stage a given species goes through. A red cherry shrimp is no "higher" developed because it does not produce larvae than an amano shrimp. The shrimp with saltwater larvae actually have much larger ranges and occur in much greater numbers. Evolutionarily, they seem to be a lot more successful if anything. Hence, "high" order or "low" order makes even less sense (even if we disregard the fact that they are just poorly translated terms from a foreign language). The terms I use in my species descriptions ( abbreviated/suppressed/normal larval development type) are the terms that you will find all over the place in scientific literature. It would make sense to use those terms in the hobby in case some of you want to look up information in scientific literature. Keeping the hobby and science compatible is never a bad idea.

[mikedmatthews]

ok, cool. i just adopted the high/low thing because its quicker and easier to remember. i don't have access to the lit, so i didn't know where the two originated. i'll switch to the more accepted terms then.

the only reason i suspected the bristlenoses was because i've watched them many times come to the from of a tank after i shoot in BBS and they will camp out on them where they are drawn to the front by the isle lighting. they do it all the time, which would seem pretty silly behaviour if they aren't actually eating them. regular old ghost shrimp seemed pretty slow at the same stage so i figured these looked about the same, maybe i set them up for failure. i keep them in all of my fry tanks and never have a problem.

the tank i had them in was cycled, but had a really heavy water change before i put the berried female in there and since it was just her i fed lightly. i would hope it wasn't nitrates. i treated the ghosts about the same and got around 30 out of the batch.

[Mustafa]

the only reason i suspected the bristlenoses was because i've watched them many times come to the from of a tank after i shoot in BBS and they will camp out on them where they are drawn to the front by the isle lighting. they do it all the time, which would seem pretty silly behaviour if they aren't actually eating them.

Of course they are eating them. If something meaty happens to fall in front of their noses, then they are not going to say "no" to the meal. However, they are not going to go hunting. Picking up BBS that are half-dead (ionic shock from being thrown in freshwater) and disoriented can hardly be considered hunting. So, what I am trying to say is that it's highly unlikely that the plecos are directly (as predators) to blame for the disappearance of the larvae. That's just not what they do. They don't have the hunting instinct and the shrimp larvae are mobile enough to get out of that suckermouth's way. As I said above, they may be producing the organic pollution, along with the BBS, that does the larvae in. The disappearing larvae act is similar to "why are my shrimp dying although my *measured* water parameters seem to be ok" act. Some issues with the water we can measure, some we can't.

[Guba]

Hi Mike, I learned the hard way too,

but had a really heavy water change

I only change 1/3 of the tank water now.

If something meaty happens to fall in front of their noses, then they are not going to say "no" to the meal. However, they are not going to go hunting.

Precisely put Mustafa! Sucker mouth catfish in general aren't very predatory. But if, "opportunities' knockin'", then they will answer the door. Now I'de like to get "Hip" with the lingo- does BBS mean baby brine shrimp?

Duh.

[mikedmatthews]

yeah sorry, i just figured everyone knows BBS is brine shrimp. i guess there's an opportunity for there to be folks here that don't deal with that aspect of the hobby though. i have something between 100-115 tanks running at any given time, so since i only have enough dedicated to shrimp/crays to set each up with their own i still have a lot of space devoted to fish. BBS is a pretty much daily routine for me.

[pixl8r]

yeah sorry, i just figured everyone knows BBS is brine shrimp. i guess there's an opportunity for there to be folks here that don't deal with that aspect of the hobby though. i have something between 100-115 tanks running at any given time, so since i only have enough dedicated to shrimp/crays to set each up with their own i still have a lot of space devoted to fish. BBS is a pretty much daily routine for me.

Wow, 100 to 115 tanks? My wife would kill me. I only have around 20 tanks, but I'll be expanding that once the new aquarium room is finished!

FYI, my nursery/grow out tanks are all species specific. The only thing, besides the particular species of shrimp, I allow in a nursery tank are snails, such as MTS, to help keep tanks cycled (in case a tank goes unpopulated for any length of time).

[mikedmatthews]

yeah, you can jam a lot of tanks in if you go vertical. i have a bunch in the garage i'm trying to figure out how to shoe-horn in, but i'm going to have to replace some of the existing ones in the end. i have a ~28x16 area and 8 tanks outside of that space.