RCS and Seachem's Flourish

[thief]

I am planning to grow riccia, HC, Hair grass, and maybe willow or christmas moss and such.

[Neonshrimp]

These are all nice plants, I grow them myself

[aram-amin]

I have tested one European product called Easy Carbo (same as Excel) in different planted tanks with CRS, RCS, and C. multidentata and all shrimps react the same.
They stop eating and stay on one spot without moving, usually grouping together. Some shrimps also died instantly! In my experience, shrimp-keepers should not use products like Easy Carbo or Excel.

Only medium to Hi light tanks need fertilisers, and shrimp tanks, IME, do much better with less light (low light 1 w/g). Ferts are not needed in low light planted aquariums with shrimps, weekly wc will add enough macros and micros to the tank.
Also, since tap water in some cities/countries contain little or no macros like PO4, NO3, K and traces (good to get a report form your water supplier) it is good to choose plants wisely.
Small amount of macros/micros in a tap, choose slow to medium growing plants. Tap with lots of PO4 and NO3 + traces should be stocked with a few fast growers.

Folk doesn't understand plant's nutrient uptake rate, and start getting algae problems, and of course start adding lots of ferts to the tank, dosing Excel to kill Black Beard Algae, forgetting that shrimps are living in those tanks.

If the priority is plants, than dose ferts like Excel, but don't keep shrimps in there.
If the priority are shrimps, stop dosing Excel and similar (liquid nor dry), and research you tap's nutritional levels so you can plant according to tap water readings and shrimp stocking level.

Getting BBA, lower your lights (RCS that I found in my Juwel filter box, total darkness, looked healthier than the ones in the tank). BBA comes only if CO2 levels aren't same. Water change will introduce some amount of CO2 which plant start up taking like crazy After day or two the tank is at low CO2 again and plants get stressed, and BBA loves these conditions. Low light tanks don't have big problems (or none IME) with BBAlgae after water changes.
For those who are very dedicated and have some time can start performing daily 5% water changes, so adding extra CO2 which comes with tap water, followed by a weekly 20%. No need for Excel in shrimp tanks, just choose low lights (1w/g), get your tap stats and add plants according to tap stats and shrimp stocking levels.

Kind regards, Dusko.

hi
i have a shrimp tank (63 liter) with a lot of plants and over many many red cherry shrimps... everyday i add 5ml flourish exel, i mean every day... and every week after 50% waterchange i add 5ml easy-life easycarbo... no shrimp die and they are fine and they keep growing... its because i know how to use the chemicals, i have a lot of plants in my tank and they suck up the chemicals before it effects the shrimps, if i had less plant then i would add 3ml or none... if u use the chemicals right and do some calculation before u add it to ur tank then it should go okay;)

Aram

[aram-amin]

A lot of people mention using Flourish and Flourish Excel(?) for plants. The bottle that I looked at lastnight (Seachem's Flourish) contains .0001% copper. Will this be ok for my shrimp? or should I get another type of fert (Petsmart did not have Excel). I have not found (locally) any ferts that don't contain copper. Is this small amount ok for shrimp?
Thanks.

hi
u have to be very carefull with chemicals like exel and easycarbo... i use then in my 63liter shrimp tank... the shrimps are fine and they keep growing... but u have to use it right before it kills ur shrimps so be carefull... i add 5ml exel every day and 5ml easycarbo every week after waterchange... the plants use up the chemicals before it effects the shrimps. do some calculation before u use them...
here is a link to my aquarium, look how many plants i have... http://akvaforum.no/akvarium.cfm?id=9921

Aram

[Dusko]

I did some more testing with Easy Carbo (as Excel) in shrimp tanks and got another conclusion!

Glutaraldehyde is not directly effecting shrimps but rather Glutaraldehyde in tanks with low Oxygen levels and low KH/GH.
People I know which have medium to hard tap water have no issues with shrimps and Easy Carbo/Excel. I on the other hand have very soft tap water (3GH/2KH) and have issues as soon I dose Easy Carbo.
Something happens in my soft water tanks when EC is dosed.
Now I dose bicarbonates and GH-Booster keeping the GH at 5 and KH at 4, and no shrimps have any issues. I also have created moderate surface agitation for better gas exchange (more O2).

But I am becoming more cautious when it comes to keeping shrimps and Easy Carbo/Excel dosing. I rather go with CO2 gas (in Hi-light tanks) instead which only makes my Crystal Reds breed like crazy.
In a case of Low-light tanks I go with the Low-tech method using soils as the main plant nutrient and easy to maintain plant (Cryptos, Anubias, Microsorum). Soils also have a very good CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) keeping nutrients in the substrate which plants can uptake via the root systems.

Thanks for your replies.

Regards, Dusko

[aram-amin]

I did some more testing with Easy Carbo (as Excel) in shrimp tanks and got another conclusion!

Glutaraldehyde is not directly effecting shrimps but rather Glutaraldehyde in tanks with low Oxygen levels and low KH/GH.
People I know which have medium to hard tap water have no issues with shrimps and Easy Carbo/Excel. I on the other hand have very soft tap water (3GH/2KH) and have issues as soon I dose Easy Carbo.
Something happens in my soft water tanks when EC is dosed.
Now I dose bicarbonates and GH-Booster keeping the GH at 5 and KH at 4, and no shrimps have any issues. I also have created moderate surface agitation for better gas exchange (more O2).

But I am becoming more cautious when it comes to keeping shrimps and Easy Carbo/Excel dosing. I rather go with CO2 gas (in Hi-light tanks) instead which only makes my Crystal Reds breed like crazy.
In a case of Low-light tanks I go with the Low-tech method using soils as the main plant nutrient and easy to maintain plant (Cryptos, Anubias, Microsorum). Soils also have a very good CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) keeping nutrients in the substrate which plants can uptake via the root systems.

Thanks for your replies.

Regards, Dusko

i think easy carbo have nothink to do with gh/kh... my gh is from 1 to 3... and is i said i use easy carbo and excel very careful. i use them because my plants started to turn white and the leafes got holes and gor brown. i use co2 and 3x15W T5 light... after i used easy carbo and excel the plantes started to be very nice again...
u said cryptos , anubias, microsorum is ok for shrimp tank, but i got to tell u one thing, NEVER PUT CRYPTOS IN SHRIMP TANKS, cryptos kill shrimps if u cut a leaf or if a leaf got old and melt in the water, it is toxic for shrimps. so never ever use cryptos in shrimp tanks.
i hope i did help u:)
thx

Aram

[Dusko]

it is toxic for shrimps. so never ever use cryptos in shrimp tanks.

Thanks for the warning mate, but my experience is telling me different
I have witnessed Caridina multidentata eating numerous times melting/dieing Cryptocoryne wendtii leaves. I never had any problems with shrimps like CRS, RCS or Amano shrimps in Crypto aquariums.
I have read somewhere on German forums that Anubias can be poisonous to shrimps, which in my case isn't the case. I would say one should test once and than test 3-4 more times in different tanks before stating anything.

The Net is full of Myths and we should try to make them disappear. So testing a few times and than comparing with fellow hobbyists on public forums before making harsh statements is the right way to do

Regards, Dusko

[JohnPaul]

A lot of people mention using Flourish and Flourish Excel(?) for plants. The bottle that I looked at lastnight (Seachem's Flourish) contains .0001% copper. Will this be ok for my shrimp? or should I get another type of fert (Petsmart did not have Excel). I have not found (locally) any ferts that don't contain copper. Is this small amount ok for shrimp?
Thanks.

I'm not going to weigh in directly on the Flourish use/don't use debate since I don't have enough experience with it. However, just to put numbers in a little bit of perspective, I know many people will put blanched vegetables into shrimp tanks. On a weight basis, cooked spinach has almost double the % of copper as Seachem Flourish. (0.000167% if you want the exact number, based on one scientific analysis. A similar analysis of raw spinach gave a result of 0.000093% copper--roughly the same as Flourish).

Now obviously, the big difference here is that most people who fertilize their tanks are dosing Flourish every other day or so. I doubt most people who feed their shrimp veggies and putting a chunk of spinach in there every other day!

Also, it's worth pointing out that, again on a weight % basis, commercial fish foods that contain copper (many, if not most, do) have about 100x the copper levels that Flourish has.

[Dusko]

There is one thing I have noticed on the Aquatic Net
It is hard to find people which are concerned about the whole aquatic system rather than only be focused on plants (planted forums), or only on fish (fish forums), or only on shrimps (shrimp forums) not giving much chance to understanding the entire system. Fish, plants, shrimps, snails, algae, microorganisms and bacteria are all parts of that ecosystem and they all co-relate with each other.

I am very happy to see people taking time and effort to find the right reason behind the issue instead of closing doors because of the living Myths. I feel Petshrimp did open that door and I salute you for that!

I am active on many Forums (on some I post actively and some I only read) and am very interested in personal experiences. They can teach us a lot.

As JohnPaul stated above inorganic ferts (like Flourish or Tropica Plant Nutrition) can't possibly kill shrimps. How do I know this?
By observing my own shrimps which are in my heavily planted tanks and are breeding and by communicating with other fellow members on the net.
Some of them have PO4 up to 4ppm (yes you read correctly 4ppm) without any fish/shrimp loses and their shrimps behave normally. I am talking about people keeping those same shrimps for more than 3-4 years (mostly C. multidentata).
Now, these shrimps got adjusted to those levels, so I am not saying that newly introduced shrimps from water with much less PO4 wouldn't go through certain stress. Maybe, even very likely if not introduced properly (long acclimatisation up to an hour or longer I do this with salt water shrimps and have great results)

For those concerned about water nutrient levels, use substrates with high CEC. They will make sure nutrients stay in the substrate (even nutrients like NH4).
Soil substrates have always more PO4 than the overlaying water. Use such substrates which can control water nutrient levels. Also such substrates support bacterial life which again supports microorganisms which feed on bacteria and each other, which again provides great food source for the always hungry shrimps

I could write more, but here in Sweden is late now so off to bed soon but here is the latest article I wrote about planted tanks with nutrient rich substrates. Focus on the part about the Dry Start Method which might benefit shrimps alot! Why??
How many wait for 2-4 month before adding live stock? Not many I guess
I had some fish/shrimp loses in the past even though I was using the Silent Cycling Method to start the tank and prepare it for the fish/shrimps. I would plant with at least 25% with fast growing stem plants which can take care of the NH4 which will come with fish/shrimps.
And still I had some loses ( not many but still).
I also had algae blooms in the first 1-2 month.

And now after using the Dry Start Method I get no algae nor water turbidity and no fish/shrimp loses at all.
The last 2 new aquariums I started just 2-3 weeks ago after Dry Cycling them for 4 month (before I use to do it for 1-2).
I am getting more aware of how important that is. I have learned this through starting up marine reef aquariums. There are no short cuts in marine aquariums. Bacteria has to settle in before fish/shrimps can in. Ocean is billions of years old. Even lakes are older than 2 month with established micro culture which actually keeps the system in balance.
I am encouraging everyone to be patient when setting up a new tank, and give a few month before everything settles in. It is worthwhile the wait.
http://lowlightlowtechplanted.blogspot.com/

It is not the Macros or Micros that can harm the shrimps but rather organic build-up, uncycled/new tanks, low O2 levels (no surface agitation), dirty filters weakening circulation, over grown plants weakening the water flow creating dead spots (regular plant pruning),etc...
Most people will test for PO4 or Cu when things go wrong but how many test for Organics or Oxygen levels?? Organic build up usually means that bacteria involved in decomposition is not getting enough of O2 to do so and organics start to pollute the system.
Keep the bacteria happy by keeping good O2 levels and light vacuuming the substrate to keep the Oxidising Microzone free of mulm, keep good water flow (clean filters and plant pruning), keep the plants happy by feeding them with a balanced diet, perform regular water changes to re-set the system a bit, etc...

When saying does nutrients I am not really vouching for Excel (still not sure and have to test and observe for a longer time to draw any conclusions). I do believe that CO2 gas is a much better option than Excel/Easy Carbo for plants in shrimp tanks.

Thanks for reading,
Dusko

[Mustafa]

It is not the Macros or Micros that can harm the shrimps but rather organic build-up, uncycled/new tanks....

That's also been my experience. *Over*dosing ferts can and does lead to organic buildup over the long run, too. That leads to algae (the floating type...not always visible) and bacterial blooms (also not visible...most of the time), which lead to "mysterious" shrimp deaths. In a tank where the plants always take up all the nutrients, that should not be problem...theoretically. But balancing such a sytem is extremely hard to do. And if you underfertilize...then plants can rot away and increase organic pollution..which again causes bacterial blooms. That's why I just don't have any plants (besides algae/biofilm) in my shrimp tanks. Others may enjoy plants in their tanks along with their shrimp, but then they also have to deal with the difficulties. By the way, just as an sidenote, there are no higher plants in typical shrimp habitats (and most fish habitats for that matter). I have seen many first hand. Shrimp like "clean" water and the nutrient levels in most shrimp habitats do not seem to be sufficient to support higher plant life.

[Dusko]

Hi Mustafa

*Over*dosing ferts can and does lead to organic buildup over the long run, too.

Over-dosing is not necessary and should be avoided especially in tanks which aren't heavily planted and in non-CO2 tanks with low-lights (1-2 wpg).
In CO2 injected tanks with High-lights plant's growing rate accelerates and they up-take nutrients faster, so dosing often smaller doses is the way to do it (every second day following the Estimative Index Method) but also when dosing nutrients often one should perform weekly 25-50% water change to re-set the system.

Inorganic ferts can't possibly cause organic build up. In most cases it is due to low O2, dirty filters, clogged substrate, over-stocking, over-feeding, over-grown plants, weak water flow, etc...
e.g. in my Red Cherry breeding tank (low.light) I stopped dosing nutrients and plants did start growing slower after a while, also my RCS population increased = more feeding. I got Staghorn algae all over plant leaves and equipment. This algae loves polluted systems (read organics due waste and food). Also plants which lack proper diet (nutrients) will go under stress and start leaking sugars back into the water column (organics).
I also noticed a few dead shrimps.

I fixed the problem by removing older plant leaves, added Active Carbon for 5 weeks, started dosing NPK+traces (NOTE! not over dosing) every 3-4 weeks (low light tank with slow to medium growing plants), improved the surface agitation for good gas exchange (this is very important) and kept the filter clean.

Plants started growing much better, no shrimp died any more, everything was in top shape again.

which lead to "mysterious" shrimp deaths

I don't believe in mysterious things There are always reasons behind issues and we should try to recognise them and eliminate them.
e.g. how many use pumps which circulate 5-8 x of the tank's water volume per hour? Not many I guess (from reading forums).
Most shrimps come from highly Oxygenated waters with good water flow. Also by improving the flow/circulation heterotrophic bacteria gets enough of O2 required for decomposition of organics (into inorganics). Organics get decomposed into inorganic e.g. NH4 which get oxidized by the aerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria (using O2) into inorganic NO3 which algae and plants can uptake (some NO3 disappears into substrate - denitrification).

I find that keeping good O2 levels, good water flow, good tank hygiene, clean filters, light substrate vacuuming, has more to do with shrimp well being than fertilisers (dosed or not)

Shrimp like "clean" water and the nutrient levels in most shrimp habitats do not seem to be sufficient to support higher plant life.

Agreed Most shrimp habitats are very dark but it doesn't stop us from using lights over our shrimp tanks
How many try to recreate a shrimp habitat? Probably some but what is with folk which will still try to grow plants in shrimp tanks. Without pointing out the issues and solutions they will probably go for algae killers and Excel to kill the algae they got causing shrimp deaths.
Or will stop dosing nutrients to the plants to minimize algae (algae never grow in eutrophic systems unless the O2 levels get low usually due to warm temperatures and weak circulation causing organic build up - ponds in the summer time come to mind), some even keep the surface agitation very still in accordance to keep CO2 from escaping from water (again very wrong, gas exchange happens on the surface so creating moderate ripples is a good thing to do, like this we introduce O2 to water), some simply get lazy ignore the water change, ignore to clean the filters which get clogged with bacteria film and trapped organics polluting the system (in clogged filters aerobic bacteria will die out due to low O2 less circulation, polluting the water and anaerobic bacteria develops instead), and once things go wrong people usually blame the fertilisers

As I stated earlier, if concerned with nutrients in the water column, use substrates with high CEC which will keep most of the nutrients like Cu, NH4, etc in the substrate. Substrates like soil or clay.
Fertilizers are not the Boogeyman in shrimp tanks but rather wrong tank maintenance from our part (insufficient circulation, no surface agitation, irregular water changes, over feeding, over stocking, dirty filters, etc).
How many admit on public forums that they ignored their tank for 2-3 month during the summer time (out door activities) didn't clean filters or didn't perform any wc in long time, etc... If something goes wrong in our tanks it is because of us and not the nutrients.
If concerned with nutrient over dose, don't dose the weekly recommended dose at once. e.g. if the recommended dose is 5ml per 50 litres and you have a 10 galls (approx 39 litres) dose 0,5ml (syringe) every day instead of dosing all 5ml at once. Like this plant will have time to uptake the 0,5ml per day. And if still concerned with nutrients building up over time (this is not a organic build up but inorganic build up) perform weekly water changes 25-50% to re-set the system.

What I wrote doesn't concern shrimp habitats and recreating biotopes, but heavily planted shrimp tanks.



This is one of my hi-tech tanks which get dosed 3x a week with NPK+traces (+ pressurized CO2) and I still have all 10 of my C. multidentata which behave normally (no stress signs), but I do maintain this tank properly.

Kind regards, Dusko

[marge618]

Hello All,
First post here.
I have Red Cherry Shrimp with huge amount of Taiwan moss and endlers.
The Endlers may be removed and add a sponge filter soon based on what I read here.
Flourescent light 5 hours a day

--------------------------------------
15G tank
Red Cherry Shrimp (30)
Endlers (30)
airstone
Taiwan moss (massive amount)
flourescent light 5 hours of a day
NLS food once a day
--------------------------------------------

Question: Are any of you using Red Cherry Shrimp with plecs? (Which plecs? Please describe how the tank is set up. Thanks..)

[Dusko]

Question: Are any of you using Red Cherry Shrimp with plecs? (Which plecs? Please describe how the tank is set up. Thanks..)

Sorry mate but I think you ended up in a wrong thread This is about dosing Excel and similar into planted shrimp tanks not about Plecos and Endlers
Best is to start a new thread mate.

Regards, Dusko

EDIT; What do you mean by " using Red Cherry Shrimp with plecs?" ??
How can one "use Red Cherrys?.... do you mean KEEPING instead of "USING" ?