The mysterious dropping eggs

[Opopanax]

My shrimp have developed saddles twice, and both times the saddles have disappeared I have not seen ANY eggs being carried.

Of course each time this has happened I've been traveling and 2-3 days go by where I haven't been observing them. I have no idea how long females will hold their eggs in teh swimertetes before dropping them due to unfertilization.

I have at least 2 maybe 3 males in the tank of 4 females. I have a hard time believing those eggs did not get fertizlized.

So what could my problem be? I've checked my water conditions, and other than having some really hard water (about 300) and fairly alkaline PH (don't have the exact number sadly), everything is fine. This is a very established tank so I have no idea what would be stressing them out. The tank is also VERY heavily planted so there's plenty of hiding spaces.

[TKD]

What kind of shrimp are they?

TKD

[badflash]

"fine" is a relative term. What did you test for and what are the numbers? If my shrimp are stressed or don't get enough to eat the females re-absorb the eggs.

Get a drop type tester for pH, Nitrates and phosphates. My phosphates and nitrates were way high and I got no eggs, Now that the concentrations are down in the 1-2 ppm range, the eggs are comming back.

[GunmetalBlue]

I have no idea how long females will hold their eggs in teh swimertetes before dropping them due to unfertilization.

My observation so far with unfertilized RCS eggs is that they can drop them right away (within that day) or hold them much longer. I had a female holding as long as 4 days. On that fourth day, she had one last egg, which finally dropped.

-GB

[Opopanax]

Oops!

Red Cherries:) All red Cherries.

Again, I don't have the exact numbers, except Nitrates showed up darn near 0 as well as nitrates. I'm very careful with the frequency and amount of my water changes.

The only thing I cannot test for is phosphates (for some bizarre reason the only tests at my LFS are strips and not drops for these).

I'm not too concern about the phosphate level. This is a heavy, and I mean Heavy planted tank.

I'll try and grab a drop test for my PH level. I never needed to worry about the exact amount so strip tests have always been sufficient to my needs. (for PH anyways, they're practically useless for anything else)

It would explain why I see saddles and suddenly no saddles, with no eggs, if the red cherries are dropping them within a single day. It's not uncommon for me to not see any of my shrimp for a day or so.

Do the males and females mature differently? Rather is it possible that my males simply haven't reach sexual maturity yet? I got all 10 of my shrimp at the same time from this site, so I imagine they were all near the same age.

[Mustafa]

Your males should be mature as they were about the same age. My educated guess is that something is wrong with your water parameters that's not immediately obvious. You might want to read my "Why are my shrimp dying?" article in the articles section to figure out if some of those problems apply to your situation. I know your shrimp are not dying but the factors in the article can cause stress that might affect reproduction.

[Opopanax]

Thanks for the reply everyone, and you Mustafa.

I did a double check on everything, and re-read the article. Nothing is amiss. I'm very careful about using hot water (not that it's hard it's a PIA to get hot water from this tap)

PH is around 7.6 or 7.8 depending on the test
Amonia/Nitrate/Nitrite is near 0

No copper, no chorline or chloramine very very careful about that.

[Opopanax]

quick update:

My shrimp have saddles again so I'll see if they'll drop again.

I've tested the water a number of times. My PH remains the same. Amonia, and nitrates vary depending on the cycle stage, but they typically stay very very low (enough that half the time I can barely tell what they register on the test)

Is there anything else I should be looking for? The only thing I've been concerned about is the temperture. I've noticed it can go up or down by 4 degree F during the day (Lowest it's ever gotten has been 73).

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi Opo, your temp sounds okay, I'm presuming it's not ultra-quick changes. Here are a few more questions:

1. Size of tank? Filtration?

2. What is your frequency and amount of water changes? And does the change introduce a large parameter shift in temp, pH, etc.?

3. What is your feeding routine? Is there a little or a lot of algae present in the tank to graze on?

4. 300 is very hard water; although Cherries prefer akaline/harder water, I'm not quite sure how high is too high? Anyone know if that number is okay? This one seems suspicious to me.

5. What is your substrate? Perhaps something is causing you to have very high numbers - do you know what your tap water parameters are?

6. Do you have any suspicious rocks, wood or plants in the tank?

7. You said your tank is heavily planted - do you dose? Shrimp are sensitive to any OD on ferts. What about CO2?

Hopefully we can find what can be improved upon that'll help your shrimp keep her eggs to term.

-GB

[Opopanax]

Hi Opo, your temp sounds okay, I'm presuming it's not ultra-quick changes. Here are a few more questions:

1. Size of tank? Filtration?

10G Most of the filtration is done through a single sponge air filter. I have a secondary whisper filter that I use when I'm cleaning the tank or going to do anything to upset the substrate. The intake is covered with a protection filter so nothing will get sucked in.

2. What is your frequency and amount of water changes? And does the change introduce a large parameter shift in temp, pH, etc.?

Water changes are done based on water quality. On the average I will change between 2.5G and 3G of water every 2-3 weeks. The water is cold tap water and is let to warm up to room temperture (which is typically close to 74 in the afternoon) and at this point I add the chlorin and chloromine removal. PH/hardness stays pretty much the same.

3. What is your feeding routine? Is there a little or a lot of algae present in the tank to graze on?

The shrimp have more than enough algae to feed on, although I will occasionally add some collard or algae tablet. I do have a few small live beares (endler live bearers) which never harrass the shrimp. So they may receive the ocasional left over flake.

4. 300 is very hard water; although Cherries prefer akaline/harder water, I'm not quite sure how high is too high? Anyone know if that number is okay? This one seems suspicious to me.

The info I've found on other sites says 300 is ok for hardiness of the shrimp. But I found nothing to specify it's affect on breeding.

5. What is your substrate? Perhaps something is causing you to have very high numbers - do you know what your tap water parameters are?

Sand. This is a well established tank and I used a mixture of play sand with some nice real fine white sand. I'm not 100% sure of my tap water qualities in regard to PH, but the hardiness is about 300. We have a lot of limestone in our aquafier.

6. Do you have any suspicious rocks, wood or plants in the tank?

Nothing suspicious. I occasionally will get some black beard algae when my Phosphates spike, but after a week they disappear (typically following a water change). My plants are pretty standard plants (picked them up from a marine bio fanatic) I have some Java moss, and a few grasses.

7. You said your tank is heavily planted - do you dose? Shrimp are sensitive to any OD on ferts. What about CO2?

I NEVER dose fertlizer on an established tank. There's no need. I'm not 100% sure about the CO2. Not quite sure how I would test that. But considering the air filter and the shere number of plants I would imagine the CO2 level would have to be very low.

[badflash]

Test for phosphates. My cherries would not even produce eggs, let alone hold them when my phosphates were >3 ppm. Once my BBA went away the cherries started making eggs like crazy.

[Opopanax]

Do you have a good recommendation for a phosphate test? my lfs didn't have anything to test those.

[badflash]

I'm using a 2-part drop test from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
http://www.aquariumpharm.com/aqtest.html
I'm sure your LFS can order.

[GunmetalBlue]

Water changes are done based on water quality. On the average I will change between 2.5G and 3G of water every 2-3 weeks. The water is cold tap water and is let to warm up to room temperture (which is typically close to 74 in the afternoon) and at this point I add the chlorin and chloromine removal. PH/hardness stays pretty much the same.

If it turns out your phosphates are too high, you could try doing smaller but more frequent water changes and see if that helps (like maybe switching to weekly changes) - or whatever other suggestions people have. But I'm also concerned about the water hardness and the fact that it stays the same - will talk about that in a bit.

The info I've found on other sites says 300 is ok for hardiness of the shrimp. But I found nothing to specify it's affect on breeding.

May I ask the source of info?

Sand. This is a well established tank and I used a mixture of play sand with some nice real fine white sand. I'm not 100% sure of my tap water qualities in regard to PH, but the hardiness is about 300. We have a lot of limestone in our aquafier.

I live in an area where our water is considered "concrete" and my tap is somewhere between 75 - 150ppm GH, nothing remotely close to 300. I'm wondering if you're getting a double whammy over there - the limestone in your aquafier and your "real fine white sand." If you still happen to have the package that the sand came in, you could check to see if your white sand is crushed marble - I've seen "white sand" sold at Home Depot and noticed it was marble.

BTW, I was just asking whether you inject CO2 - so I think your answer is no.

-GB

[Opopanax]

I tested our tap water and the water has the hardness of 300.

Very hard water... btw that's WITH water softner.

I'll have to pick up a phosphate test. I do know I get occasional spikes due to the sudden appearance (and disappearance) of that black beard algae stuff.

As for my sources, I did a google search for Red Cherry and water hardness and found a number of places that listed 300 as a safe range. I found one that even mentions that 300 isn't an uncommon level for some areas even after a water softner treatment.

The sand I have is not crushed marble. I don't know what it is for sure. It was my sister's aquarium sand (from the college marine biology department) and she said it wouldn't be causing an issue with water hardness.