pelagic shrimp

This is an archived forum with lots of information. However, new posts are not allowed at this point.

Moderator: Mustafa

Locked
pleco_breeder
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

pelagic shrimp

Post by pleco_breeder »

Hello all,

As many of you already know, I have a very strong background in aquaculture. I've read a lot about the pelagic stages of some shrimp on this forum and others. As a result of my complex thought patterns :-D , I am curious if anyone has thought of using a kriesel for raising any of the types till they reach their benthic stage. Sorry if I'm re-posting, but I've been getting error messages when I do a search.

Thanks,

Larry Vires
User avatar
badflash
Master Shrimp Nut
Master Shrimp Nut
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Contact:

Re: pelagic shrimp

Post by badflash »

pleco_breeder wrote:Hello all,

As many of you already know, I have a very strong background in aquaculture. I've read a lot about the pelagic stages of some shrimp on this forum and others. As a result of my complex thought patterns :-D , I am curious if anyone has thought of using a kriesel for raising any of the types till they reach their benthic stage. Sorry if I'm re-posting, but I've been getting error messages when I do a search.

Thanks,

Larry Vires
Hey Larry, Welcome. I know nothing about you, but if you know a lot about the subject, new ideas are always welcome.

What the heck is a kriesel? I googled it and found some artists, beer, etc. but nothing I could put shrimp in...
pleco_breeder
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Post by pleco_breeder »

Hello,

To put it short, a kriesel is a container which keeps a slow constant flow to keep pelagic marine shrimp or fish suspended till metamorphosis. There are several different designs out there, but the simplest seems to be the ones that I've used on central systems because it's so easy to set the directional flow via a manifold attached to one of the lines and a small valve.

I'll offer a brief description of how I would do it. I'm not yet, but it will be a project once I'm more comfortable with FW shrimp. If you don't want to do an entire central system, a canister filter will suffice by plumbing the manifold.

Initially, berried females are removed to a separate tank. Essentially, it's a 2-3 inch PVC approximately 3 inches long. On the bottom of the PVC is a plastic craft mesh to allow the newly released shrimplets to get to the separate tank and prevent disturbing them while removing the female.

A second section of 4-6 inch PVC is cut 2 inches longer than the first and is capped on the bottom. Drill a 1 1/2 inch hole in the center as an outlet before gluing the cap. Glue is not really necessary, but I do it anyway. A piece of Nylon or polyester micron mesh, based on the size of the larvae, is glued over the hole to prevent them from being sucked out. This material is commercially produced for aquaculture under the trade name of Nitex and ranges from 3-500 microns. This container is where the larvae will live till they settle.

The flow is provided by using valves to give just enough circular current to create water movement all the way to the bottom. A couple 1 inch spring clamps keep the PVC mounted to each other and the tank wall. If there is no UV/ozone, it should be simple to mount VHO over the open end of the tank and raise phyto in the tank with the larvae. So long as the filter on the system isn't micron rated, it should just pass right through and into the kriesel where the fry are waiting.

Once the female has dropped her eggs, she can be gently removed to the original tank to mate again. At that point, salt can be slowly introduced into the tank and food items introduced.

One other important note, since we are essentially dealing with a marine system. Most marine species follow light, aka phototrophic, to find food. For that reason, I would recommend that the PVC used for this type of project be the black variety to prevent reflection which could cause the shrimp to starve while being surrounded by food. This is only a precaution which seems logical to me, and others experiences may prove this wrong.

From what I understand, there seems to be a point at 20-25 days when most people lose the spawn. I would have to see pics of a recently deceased larvae under microscope to be sure, but I am under the assumption that they are not getting all the nutrition which is required to complete metamorphosis. It is very likely that feeding Selcon fortified rotifers for 3-5 days before this point could solve the problem. If that is not successful, there are 2 commercially produced marine larval diets that have been highly recommended. The trade names are Otoheim and LarvalZ. Both are sold based upon micron size and will require daily tank cleaning to prevent fouling. If using these foods, I would highly recommend the use of a fluidized bed filter on the system.

OK, I got a little long-winded for what was supposed to be a short description. However, I have a feeling that this could become a hot topic in short order and the extended version will save a lot of questions.

Larry Vires
User avatar
badflash
Master Shrimp Nut
Master Shrimp Nut
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Contact:

Post by badflash »

Pictures would help a lot if possible.

People who have succeeded so far have used straight marine algae. I tried rotifers and was not successful.
pleco_breeder
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Post by pleco_breeder »

Hello,

This isn't something that I've built recently, so do not have any on hand. These are used only when needed. Do a search for Nitex, and look at the cost, and you'll see why I'm not just throwing one together for a pic. My question, was simply if anyone had tried using them as they do take a lot of the work out of raising pelagic organisms.

If I am successful with the cherry shrimp, I intend to set up a central system specifically for shrimp. I've already got the plans laid out, and will be looking for a filter species to keep in the sump and attempt spawning from. So far, I can only find A. gabonensis and am not really keen on such a bulky species.

Larry Vires
Mustafa
Founder
Founder
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by Mustafa »

I'm in the middle of my move and have limited time, but I'll chime in for a second. :-D

First of all, thanks for introducing this topic, Larry. And thanks for providing a detailed description. I've actually been evaluating this method for a while now and have not decided yet if it will provide significant advantages for most shrimp larvae or not.

Just a few more things to avoid confusion here. First, it's actually spelled "Kreisel" (not Kriesel) and the full name is actually "Planktonkreisel" (now the google searches should be a lot more fruitful). The Planktonkreisel was first used (i.e. developed) by the "Biologische Anstalt Helgoland" (Biological Institute Helgoland) in Helgoland (an island in the North Sea), Germany in the 60s for rearing and culture experiments with "ctenophores, a chaetognath and meroplanktonic organisms." Here is the abstract of the original paper from the 60s:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p6n4q07588k00m82/

"Kreisel" in German is a word that can be used for rotating/spinning things/devices. (The meaning of "Plankton" should be clear ;))

Here is *one* design that you hit right away when you do a google search:

http://www.mbari.org/midwater/tank/tank.htm

There have been many, many papers published about various Planktonkreisel designs, but, unfortunately, most of you won't be able to access them unless you are at a university or have a subscription to an expensive scientific article delivery service.

Second, the strict definition of the word "pelagic" in most dictionaries is: "found in open sea: relating to, living, or occurring in the waters of the ocean or the open sea as opposed to near the shore" Examples: pelagic fish, pelagic bird populations etc...etc. In other words, pelagic is used for animals living away from the shore, more or less "in the middle of the ocean/sea." Although "pelagic" is normally used in a marine context it has also been used by scientists to describe "pelagic" animals in large, ocean-like lakes like the rift lakes in Africa. You do see some erroneous defintions floating around on the internet that describe pelagic as the opposite of "benthic." That is not accurate. "Pelagic" does not really relate to any life-stage of an animal, hence using the word "pelagic stage" would also be erroneous. Pelagic really just means "in the open sea (or large lake)" and it could refer to a bird, a fish or even "pelagic sediments" on the ocean floor.

When talking about larval stages of animals one usually says "planktonik" as the larvae form part of the ocean zooplankton. Zooplankton can be pelagic, but does not necessarily have to be as near-shore waters can also be plankton-rich. Plus, judging from the distributions of many freshwater shrimp with marine planktonic stages, the larvae of many (maybe even most?) species seem to stay relatively close to the shore, some even staying around in mostly brackish waters. So, "larval stage" (when referring to larvae in general) or "planktonic stage" (when referring to the larvae out in the wild as part of the zooplankton) would be the correct way of describing that particular stage in a shrimp's life.

Anyway, just clarifying things as it is important that hobbyists learn to use the correct terms (when they have actually reached the stage where they hae to use these words, that is :-D)

Thanks again for bringing up the topic, Larry! Your input is greatly appreciated.
User avatar
apistomaster
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:04 am
Location: Clarkston WA 99403

Post by apistomaster »

This is a good topic, Larry.
With so many of the ornamental shrimps apparently requiring at least their frst stages of development in an estuarine enviroment we would-be culturists are going to have to find some practical way to duplicate the conditions and foods necessary to get them through every stage from release to eventual settlement ant transitioning back to freshwater again.

The fact that shrimp are commercially raised means there should be plenty of research already done that should lessen the steepness of the learning curve.
I think even a scaled down method will need to be fairly large just as would any centralized system would be compared to the single tank straight forward way RCS may be cultured.

Other than the Amano shrimp there are relatively few other shrimp with sufficient market demand that justifies the effort except for the personal satisfaction derived from raising species no-one has done before, at least that come to mind.

What other species would be commercially viable once a basic method is worked out?
pleco_breeder
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Post by pleco_breeder »

Hello,

I haven't really anounced it yet, but I'm working on building a 12 tank rack for shrimp. I don't plan on diving straight into the expensive ones, but will be expanding slowly as I work out the management protocols. I intend to use 3 tanks on this system for smaller filter feeding shrimp, and will be building a kreisel to "experiment" with the effectiveness. Obviously, in order to statistically show any difference, I'll also have to attempt raising them in a semi-normal tank environment. I emphasize semi-normal because I tend to design A LOT of DIY items to take care of some of the workload. I've already located the cheapest vendor for the nitex. My next step is to find accurate data of the life cycle for the various species with accurate measurements of the planktonic stages in order to get the proper size mesh. I'll update more as the project progresses.

Larry Vires
Mustafa
Founder
Founder
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by Mustafa »

Good luck! :) You might want to start a new thread to keep track of your progress once you are ready.
pleco_breeder
Tiny Shrimp
Tiny Shrimp
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Post by pleco_breeder »

I may consider putting the info regarding the methods I use to raise the shrimp. As for the rack, there are several articles out there already that document how to do that. One adaptation to the standard central system that I am implementing is the use of a micron mesh screen molded into the overflows in order to keep larvae in the tanks, and out of the filter. I may be new, but not many things thrive while being pressed through 2 micron filters. ;-)

I will definitely be putting the info up as it happens, but don't plan on boring anyone with the numbers till I see that there is a reason ;-)

Larry Vires
Locked