BT Deaths...

[southerndesert]

Well just when things seem to be going great a die off begins in my 20 gallon long Blue Tiger tank..... Water parameters are fine. Only thing done new was a water change yesterday. What the heck was in the R/O water or the jug I am left wondering? Have lost 3 so far with 3 others going milky....

PH 6.6
Temp 74F
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0

Have done a water change and hoping for the best, but something obviously got into my tank....

Suggestions are more than welcome.....

Bill

[Mustafa]

Sorry to read about this. Hard to say what exactly may be the reason. You did not make any other changes such as cleaning the filter, scraping algae off the sides etc..etc.? People often do other things with water changes, that's why I am asking. Also, how much of the water did you change? If this helps at all, I don't use RO water at all for mine. If they have been breeding in that water, though, I don't see any reason why it's the change water that should have caused the deaths.

[southerndesert]

Hello Mustafa,

Nothing new and no maintenance other than a 20% WC....Things seem fine now and only lost one more. Can't seem to spot anymore in distress at this time. There are over 60 in various sizes in this 20 long with good filtration. Keeping my eye on things and not ready to panic just yet.... Never good to lose shrimp, but not being able to nail down the cause is the hardest part. I do not overfeed and feed little protein, they have been molting fine and a couple molts were in the tank after both recent water changes.

Bill

[Mustafa]

If all the other shrimp seem fine (i.e. picking around and behaving normally), then I would not change anything. There is really not much you can do. Individual shrimp do die sometimes, but if the population as a whole is ok, there is nothing you can really do.

[adimeatatime]

How are your shrimp doing? I had the same thing happen a while back with my tiger shrimp. I never did figure out what the problem was.

[southerndesert]

I lost one more , but since all is well... The one more lost was very dark blue and was more than likely affected at the same time as the others by whatever killed them, but being so dark I did not notice the shrimp was sick.

This link was posted at PT and I thought it interesting.... http://www.shrimp-diseases-online.com/milkillness.htm

I am still not sure at all about what caused the problem, but I'm keeping a close eye on them and have reduced the amount of water I change at one time, why? I really don't know, but it was the only common denominator I could find associated with this issue as last time (months back) that it happened it was also after a water change.

Or perhaps the disease mentioned above?

Ah...so much yet left to lean...but enjoying the challenge and education, Bill

[Neonshrimp]

Ah...so much yet left to lean...but enjoying the challenge and education, Bill

Hi Bill, I have bee following this thread and find it hard to hear about your losses. It can be difficult to know weather it was due to a major factor such as the illness or something simpler like a peeny or hand lotion introduced into the tank. But like you mentioned we are learning along the way, thanks for helping us move forward in this process. I do hope you situation returns to normal soon

[southerndesert]

3 more showing symptoms today and are now in quarantine.... Seems to be just adults affected thus far for some reason. Water parameters still looking good...

Bill

[HOLLYWOOD]

Bill do you have KH and GH readings? I can't remember what my tank parameters were but after Donna took my measurements she said they were perfect for BT's. So far I have only lost 2 to this mysterious affliction. This is a newly purchased tank of BT's. They internally become clear milky white, turn orange, then pink and die within a few days (1-3). I have not seen any since and have quickly isolated and removed the few that were affected.

[southerndesert]

PH 6.4
GH-3
KH-4
Temp 74 degrees F

[HOLLYWOOD]

I believe those readings are high. Get with Donna....

Bill check your e-mail....

[Mustafa]

The parameters are just fine. Nothing is "too high" at all. I would not worry too much about the water parameters being an issue here. It just sounds like your usual "my shrimp is getting milky white and dying" problem. All shrimp do that when they are stressed and about to die. That does not have to be an indication of any disease whatsoever.Either they are stressed, or, just as likely as anything else in this case, the original shrimp were bought at around the same age and are dying at around the same time, too.

By the way...just because your shrimp come from a specific person does not mean that you have to exactly copy the water parameters of that person or that that person can solve all your problems with your shrimp. Shrimp are very adaptable as long as extremes are avoided. I have bred these guys in the mid 7s up to low 8s ph levels in super-hard water. They also breed at ph levels of 6.4 to the low 7s (still super high TDS water). I have bred tiger shrimp in super soft water in NYC, too. So..it's safe to say that you can ignore the water parameters as a source of problems.

Instead of fumbling around too much I would just wait it out if your young are doing just fine. Your tank will settle after a while and deaths will stop. Stuff like this happened to me before, too. I usually stop feeding altogether until the problem disappears. You can still continue the water changes etc. Changing things left and right to reseolve a problem that you know nothing about (i.e. no measurable problems) is bound to cause even more problems.

[HOLLYWOOD]

She may not have the answers but she's doing something that we are having problems with. It doesnt hurt to ask. BTW She is the only person I know who has a current successful Large colony of BT's so that in itself should speak volumes.

[Mustafa]

I don't think you understood me. What I keep saying over and over again is that one cannot diagnose the vast majority of problems in a shrimp tank by looking at water parameter numbers that someone gives you. Everyone's situation is different and everyone should learn to observe his/her own shrimp carefully to diagnose any problems. You are the only person who can see and observe your shrimp. That's really the only way to successfully diagnose problems. Just saying "that's too high" or "that's too low" when looking at someone's water parameters does not really resolve anything in most cases as shrimp are very adaptable. I'll say it again...I have a *LARGE* colony (see, now you know another person who is successfully breeding these shrimp, but that's besides the point) of these guys in about 500 ppm TDS water and they are breeding and doing great. Same applies to my crystal red shrimp, bumble bee shrimp, bee shrimp etc...etc...etc.

So...someone who successfully breeds a species can really only reliably tell you what he/she is doing. That does not mean that if that person thinks that really soft water and low ph is required for successful breeding, that that is necessarily true. That does not diagnose your problem, either, as most problems have absolutely *nothing* to do with soft or hard, alkaline or acidic water. I know I'm repeating myself but dimilar to red cherry shrimp, Tiger shrimp (and others) can be kept at various ph and hardness levels. There are other factors that make tiger shrimp slighly harder to breed. I have expounded on many over the years and I will write about many others in the future. There is probably nobody else out there who has done as many breeding/husbandry experiments with dozens of species kept at various water parameters over the years, so what I am saying *may* just speak a few volumes, too. I'm sure Bill can contact the person he bought the shrimp from if he wants to (and maybe has), but he decided to come here and ask the question in this forum for a reason. He appreciates the advice here. Telling him to go contact the breeder of his shrimp and trying to take the conversation offline ("Bill, check your email" "Get with Donna") is not only counterproductive in the context of this thread but also disrespects this forum and its members.

I don't really know why you are focusing so much on the person Bill got the shrimp from. That's not even the topic. You said "I believe those readings are high" and you obviously thought that the tiger shrimp may be somehow diseased ("this affliction" "removed the few that were affected" etc.). My reply (see above) was to those assertions. Where Bill got the shrimp from is absolutely irrelevant unless that person is standing right next to Bill and observing the tank for a few days. When Bill had some initial problems with the Malaya shrimp he bought from me, I told him what I do to breed those shrimp and keep them happy. I did not ask him to go measure his water parameters as I know it would have been irrelevant. That's the point. So..let's just stay on topic and talk about the blue tiger shrimp deaths, if there is anything more to say, as talking about this and that person is counterproductive and absolutely off-topic. If that person has anything to say then she (I assume "Donna" is a she) can come here and add her opinion to the discussion.

[southerndesert]

Update:

No more deaths for many days now and my shrimp are back to acting normal and well happy...

What did I do? Well it seems possible my feeding schedules and their diet may have been the problem.

I was in contact with the person that breeds the Blue Tiger strain I am keeping and we went over what she may have been doing that I wasn't to try and rule out human error... Everything appeared fine until we began discussing food, population, and type of food. D was under the impression I was perhaps under feeding and giving to much protein... I had over looked this seeming simple problem while rushing to check everything else. I think Mustafa would have told me the same if we would have discussed feeding, but I hadn't considered it.

She said the same thing about water parameters and sought a different solution....

Now that being said and being one with an open mind I gave my BT some boiled spinach and broccoli at night and regular food in the day and still am and I have had no deaths, the shrimp mob the cooked veggies and eat it amazingly fast (in all my tanks)

Yup I know there is a possibility of a coincidence here and the problem passed on it's own, but I feel the addition of vitamins and nutrients not available in my processed foods could well have had a major influence in the solving of my issues. I mean improper nutrient and vitamin intake will definitely cause stress right?

Either way for now things are back to normal, I have learned yet another possible valuable lesson.... I was just not paying attention to how important diet is with these voratious little omnivores perhaps....

Cheers, Bill