Metabetaeus lohena larvae update

[KenCotigirl]

AAARG!!! Well day six hit and the larvae look finished. Just like last year at the six day mark. Next try I will keep the salinity at 33. Here are some better pictures.

[Mustafa]

What a bummer! Hmmm...do you think the larvae grew at all? Judging from the pictures it seems like there is nothing in their stomachs. If they are eating, it must not be much...or not nutritious enough. Maybe a change in feed is in order. Microencapsulated larval feed (50 micron and under) should work if the larvae accept it...and they usually do. You can still keep the green water setup as that takes care of possible ammonia issue, but daily feedings of small amounts of the larval food may do the trick. Although possible, I doubt it's the salinity that's the issue. You can still try to breed them at higher salinities (without feeding the larval food) to exclude salinity as a factor, but eventually you should try the larval food. There are several brands out there, but as this food is meant for aquaculture they usually come in huge packs. "Golden Pearls" comes in relatively small quantities, but even the smallest pack you can get will last you years. If you can't locate small quantities anywhere, I can put some in an envelope and send it your way. You really need tiny emounts of it.

Another alternative is live saltwater plankton...kind of the equivalent to "Infusoria" in freshwater. Rotifers may work, but may already be too large...brine shrimp nauplii most likely won't work; they are usually too large.

I still have not gotten around to preparing a tank for these guys myself...I really need to try to breed them, too, so we have at least two attempts going at the same time.

[KenCotigirl]

Thanks for the input Mustafa. Golden pearls, I will check it out. I agree they do not look like they are eating. I talked to a student of Scott Santos and he stated others were having problems with M. lohena after the 1st or 2nd larvae stage. I plan to reach out to Prof. Santos as his grad. student graduated. Maybe others have gotten further and could provide insight. I am trying to culture some Copepods in the green water. Their larvae are very small. If I am lucky I will try one more batch at a salinity of 33 this should confirm (unscientifically) that high salinity is not the problem then a batch with supplemental feeding. When they are happy they berry monthly.

[Mustafa]

Don't know if you reached out to Scott Santos or not, but last time I talked to him he did not know of anyone who was successful. I don't think anything has changed about that. Having said that, it's not like droves of people are working on breeding this species. People here and there try...and most people in labs are not experienced breeders, either. I think you (or I, if I find the time and resources) have a better chance of succeeding than anyone else out there...if only for the sheer fact that you are probably the only person on the whole planet who is trying this right now. It's definitely doable, one just has to find the right recipe/formula.

[Rob in Puyallup]

Hey Ken,

Mustafa referenced this thread in one of mine. I've only had the chance to read a few posts at the beginning and the last couple here.

It's got me interested!

Where can a guy get some of these?

Rob

[Rob in Puyallup]

So Ken... Are any of the larvae still around?

[KenCotigirl]

No larvae as of this post. The shrimp are frustrating. When I am ready they do not berry and of course the opposite is true. Right now I have not seen another berried but they hide very well. I am ready for them. The Golden Pearls will arrive tomorrow and the water is green.

[KenCotigirl]

Mustafa I have not reached out to Scott. I am never a quick corresponder. I may get around to it this weekend. The Flower Show is in Philly now and I am busy at the show. Also I do not think any of his grad. students are working on anchialine species and that may not help.

[KenCotigirl]

I found another berried momma! She is a big one too. Not the same female as last month. This one is larger and redder. I have my green water ready and my golden pearls. Need to replace the battery in my lure light. Planning to make a second batch of tetraselmis just in case. I figure even if the larvae do not eat the algae the algae may keep the ammonia and nitrite under control while feeding the golden pearls. The next decision is when do I feed, how much and how often. Since the larvae lasted six days maybe that is how long their yolk lasts. I do not think it is smart to feed for the first few days. Maybe start day four and begin 10%-20% water changes to keep the water from going sour. How much to feed, I am clueless. Maybe thirty larvae 2mm long. How do you quantify a pinch? Thinking of using a toothpick and whatever sticks to the end of it. Feed 3 times a day. I have about three weeks to think about it till the eggs hatch and larvae released. At least it is a start of a plan.

I have one more thought. What if I add a few snails and or a few H. rubra juvies to the green water with the M. lohena larvae. This way any uneaten food by the larvae would be eaten by the shrimp/snails. Am I over thinking this or over complicating this? Hmmm.

Ken

[Mustafa]

That's great news! You have a few weeks to prepare, but let's go over a few things you were asking. I would *not* change any water if you're going to use green water. The green water should take care of all ammonia waste and suppress most bacteria and fungi. So, no snails or young shrimp needed, either. Although, it would probably not hurt to have snails in there for another reason: to cycle the tank and keep the cycle going. Besides possibly starving to death, the larvae are very sensitive to ammonia. They may simply be dying due to prolonged ammonia exposure. I've experienced that with the larvae of other species before. They don't even have much of an appetite when ammonia is in the water. Again, the green water should help here, but a combination of green water and a well cycled tank is probably key.

As for how much to feed, you have to use some imagination. Picture (in your head) the size of the particles you are feeding and then imagine how many of these "dots" it would take to loosely fill your tank with floating particles. The amount to feed is never an exact science, but more of an approximation. I think feeding twice a day should be plenty. So, set up the tank *now* (unless it's been running this whole time already), get the green water going, and throw some snails in. Feed the snails. If the snails look like they're pretty happy and eating, that's a positive sign. By feeding the snails you'll also be fertilizing your green water, so that's a good side effect. To be on the safe side I would start feeding on day 2. You don't want them to possibly starve for too long as recovery from starvation may become impossible after a certain point, even if you feed them eventually.

[KenCotigirl]

Mustafa some snails I have are from you. I also have some sort of nerite locally called pipipi in Hawaii. They are acclimated to 14 but my green water is 33. Would there be an issue with the salinity and the snails? I was thinking of using two tanks to avoid all your eggs in one basket. Keep one salinity at 33 and the other at a lower salinity say 27. I have kept larvae at 27 for six days. Need to pay attention to my units sg./ppt/psu. Rereading my posts I may have mixed my units. Sorry for any confusion.

[Mustafa]

Nah...salinity won't be an issue with the snails. They can take anywhere between 0 and 70+ ppt salinity, if the change happens gradually.

Mustafa some snails I have are from you. I also have some sort of nerite locally called pipipi in Hawaii. They are acclimated to 14 but my green water is 33. Would there be an issue with the salinity and the snails? I was thinking of using two tanks to avoid all your eggs in one basket. Keep one salinity at 33 and the other at a lower salinity say 27. I have kept larvae at 27 for six days. Need to pay attention to my units sg./ppt/psu. Rereading my posts I may have mixed my units. Sorry for any confusion.

[KenCotigirl]

Mustafa. When you say gradually can I go safely from 15 ppt to 33 ppt over a period of ten days?

[Mustafa]

Yes, that's plenty of time...almost *too* gradual. I'd say at most half that time is gradual enough.

[KenCotigirl]

Thank you.

Ken