I learned of "Green Shrimp" on this site ( http://www.petshrimp.com/greenshrimp.html ). I had never seen or heard of them before, but was immediately enamored. I did a search of this forum on the phrase "green shrimp" to see if anyone had any acquisition information about them, but no one did. So I did a web search, and found them at Arizona Aquatic Gardens ( http://www.azgardens.com/shrimpfactory.php ), where they are called "Dwarf Emerald Green Deora Algae Eating Shrimp." I ordered 14 of them at $2.29 each for a total of $37.06, including the so-called "Box/Handling Fee", and chose to have them ship via Next Day delivery. I stayed home from work the next day and awaited the arrival of my shrimp. When I opened the carton, the room quickly filled with the horrifying smell of rotting flesh. As I carefully counted out shrimp and shrimp corpses, I learned that AAG had sent only 13 shrimp---not the 14 that I had ordered and paid for---and that, of these 13 shrimp, 7 were dead. So dead and rotting, in fact, that I find it impossible to believe that they died during the mere hours that they were in transit: I believe that they were dead before they were packaged and shipped to me. The package contained a photocopied insert that stated that all fish and shrimp are sedated with a product named "Bag Buddies" by Jungle Labs ( http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=JT703 ). The product manufacturer's website mentions only fish in its description of this product: it does not, for example, state that it is intended for "fish and invertebrates." The photocopied insert recommended that, because of the use of this product on the animals, specific acclimation procedures be followed that include the use of an airstone to rapidly increase the levels of dissolved oxygen in the water, which is baffling in light of the product manufacturer's statement that "just one tablet in fish bag water also releases oxygen into the fish bag and ensures fish arrive home safely." Nevertheless, I followed AAG's recommended acclimation procedures: all of the 6 then-remaining shrimp were dead within the next 12 hours. The photocopied insert also stated a procedure for dealing with DOA animals (which apparently must happen so frequently that it requires a photocopied insert in each shipment): it said to report all losses to AAG for store credit. I reported my losses, but received no response at all (perhaps because the report of my losses was quite terse in tone). When the overnight shipping charges that were assessed after the fact---according to AAG's highly-suspect "Shipping Charges will be calculated separately and charged in a separate transaction at the time of shipping" policy---came through on my credit card, they were for the exhorbitant amount of $49.40.
So, for a total price of: $86.46
I received this many living, viable Green Shrimp: 0
After a couple of weeks of total lack of response by AAG to my "loss report," I filed a complaint with the Tucson-area Better Business Bureau about this matter. Later in the same day that the BBB would have brought my complaint to AAG's attention, I received an e-mail from AAG stating, "I will issue a credit for you that you may use at anytime." In this way, they will satisfactorily demonstrate to the BBB that they have attempted to right this wrong, and the BBB will then have to "administratively close" this case (which means that the "BBB determined the company made a reasonable offer to resolve the issues, but the consumer did not accept the offer"), for which their standing with the BBB will remain "satisfactory" (meaning that the company has, among other things, "properly addressed matters referred by the Bureau"). (Also, as an aside, the e-mail that I finally did receive from AAG also denied the use of "Bag Buddies" on the shrimp and stated that the photocopied insert was included in my order by mistake. Which makes one wonder why it said "fish and shrimp" on the photocopied insert.)
As I mentioned, I had done a search in these forums on "green shrimp" prior to making this purchase, but I wish that I had thought to do a search on AAG, so that I may have been spared this great (for me) financial loss.
[Admin: Part asking for a place to buy shrimp deleted]
Attempt to Acquire Green Shrimp . . . Fails Miserably
Moderator: Mustafa
miketoe
Sorry to hear of your loss.
I do believe, they have been mentioned in other posts. nothing good to say.
AS for asking, Where to buy Shrimp !
That is against this Forums Rules.
You may want to edit that part out of your post
Just a helpful hint.
John
Sorry to hear of your loss.
I do believe, they have been mentioned in other posts. nothing good to say.
AS for asking, Where to buy Shrimp !
That is against this Forums Rules.
You may want to edit that part out of your post
Just a helpful hint.
John
Last edited by Newjohn on Mon May 15, 2006 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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badflash
- Master Shrimp Nut
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- Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
- Contact:
You should search the forum for dealers before you buy next time. I posted a similar experience with these fine people. I would NEVER do buisness with them again.
BTW- It is totally OK to provide factual experience, as you appear to have done here. What isn't OK is to ask where to buy. Off topic or purchase questions are done via PM of likely individuals.
BTW- It is totally OK to provide factual experience, as you appear to have done here. What isn't OK is to ask where to buy. Off topic or purchase questions are done via PM of likely individuals.
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Shrimp&Snails
- Shrimpoholic
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:12 am
A lot of the info these guys have seems off base and their shipping warning should be dubious enough to scare most sensible people away.
4. THE MORTALITY OF SHIPPING SHRIMP AND SEXING SHRIMP! All too often customers will order a small sampling of assorted shrimp, or want an even mix of males/females. This is fine, but please think about this--you may have some losses. Usually these guys will ship fine, but you should count on some losses from the stressful transit. It sure won't be worth it for you to have to pay for the shipping on replacing a few dead shrimp. If you were counting on having 2 or 3 pairs of a particular kind of shrimp and some die, then in this case you will wish you would have ordered more. We always suggest purchasing a few more than you need. The shipping won't be any more if you bought 2 shrimp or 10. This is not a sales ploy, but the reality is that fish and shrimp do die in transit. We offer live arrival guarantee and we'll credit your in-house account for losses or replace them for free, but the customer is always responsible for the shipping fees. Lastly, all too often we are asked to send pairs of shrimp, but we DO NOT sell sexed animals. It is far too difficult to sex shrimp, it is about as easy to sex a gnat or a flea than a shrimp. In a case with Singapore Shrimp, which you can sometimes tell the difference at a glance, so we will send a mixed amount of males/females. We regularly get orders from customers asking us to send them 1 pair which is just not likely, or our personal favorite: "Please send me 1 pregnant female." This kind of request is ridiculous and will not be honored with a reply. Thank you for understanding, and we apologize for sounding so sarcastic.
a.k.a. Buy lots because we expect casualties.
4. THE MORTALITY OF SHIPPING SHRIMP AND SEXING SHRIMP! All too often customers will order a small sampling of assorted shrimp, or want an even mix of males/females. This is fine, but please think about this--you may have some losses. Usually these guys will ship fine, but you should count on some losses from the stressful transit. It sure won't be worth it for you to have to pay for the shipping on replacing a few dead shrimp. If you were counting on having 2 or 3 pairs of a particular kind of shrimp and some die, then in this case you will wish you would have ordered more. We always suggest purchasing a few more than you need. The shipping won't be any more if you bought 2 shrimp or 10. This is not a sales ploy, but the reality is that fish and shrimp do die in transit. We offer live arrival guarantee and we'll credit your in-house account for losses or replace them for free, but the customer is always responsible for the shipping fees. Lastly, all too often we are asked to send pairs of shrimp, but we DO NOT sell sexed animals. It is far too difficult to sex shrimp, it is about as easy to sex a gnat or a flea than a shrimp. In a case with Singapore Shrimp, which you can sometimes tell the difference at a glance, so we will send a mixed amount of males/females. We regularly get orders from customers asking us to send them 1 pair which is just not likely, or our personal favorite: "Please send me 1 pregnant female." This kind of request is ridiculous and will not be honored with a reply. Thank you for understanding, and we apologize for sounding so sarcastic.
a.k.a. Buy lots because we expect casualties.
Use "Bag Buddies" with shrimps? No wonder they seem to be famous in delivering DEAD shrimps.
AZ should not make such an obvious mistake.
In shipping shrimps, the water should be from the tank the shrimps are in and absolutely nothing should be added in the water in shipping shrimps.
If the shrimps are packed with breather bag, they can stay and live in the bag until they starve to death, spoil the water, and poison all the remaining shrimps in the same bag -- that would take weeks or months.
AZ should not make such an obvious mistake.
In shipping shrimps, the water should be from the tank the shrimps are in and absolutely nothing should be added in the water in shipping shrimps.
If the shrimps are packed with breather bag, they can stay and live in the bag until they starve to death, spoil the water, and poison all the remaining shrimps in the same bag -- that would take weeks or months.
@Miketoe
Thanks for posting your experience with that outfit. The more people speak up, the more warnings will be available for people who are thinking about buying shrimp there. The people who posted their experiences here are just the tip of the iceberg. I am fairly certain that there are a huge number of people out there who either don't know about this website (and hence could not read the warnings) or have simply accepted AAG's ridiculous claim that a few dead shrimp arriving at your door is normal (and that's with NEXT DAY service...unbelievable).
@Ecir
The section where they say "you should count on some losses from the stressful transit" kills me. They are trying to make it seem like it's normal that animals die. Again, this is with NEXT DAY service, their only shipping option! Anyone reading anything like this anywhere should stay away from that place.
@tapmxt1
You are right, bag buddies should NOT be used with shrimp. I never put anything in the bags I ship. Long time ago I performed an experiment with a red cherry shrimp. I put it in a bag and droped just a tiny fraction of a "bag buddy" in the bag. The shrimp suddenly started behaving irregularly. It looked it it was slowly getting paralyzed. So, I immediately took the shrimp out and put it back into its tank. Bag buddies work for fish but definitely not shrimp.
However, in this case (Arizona Aquatic Gardens) I am 100% sure that bag buddies are not the main problem. Even if they did not use bag buddies, which they didn't when I received dead shrimp from them over and over again (as they were trying to replace the dead shrimp with more dead and half-dead shrimp), you will get dead and half-dead shrimp if the shrimp in their holding tanks are ALREADY half-dead and dying. As you can see, such shrimp won't last even 24 hours in a bag and probably would have died anyway in AAG's holding tanks.
Imported shrimp already go through a lot of stress, but if you then keep them under overcrowded conditions with few, if any, water changes, then the shrimp will not only not recover, but their condition will worsen so that they die or are barely clinging to life. Then, these half-dead shrimp are packaged and sent out to customers. For such "businesses" it's a race against time: they want to sell as many shrimp as possible, no matter if they are half-dead or not, before they all die on them. Why does an outfit like AAG still import shrimp if they all die or are half dead? Two reasons:
1. There will always be new people who don't know what they are getting into and buy shrimp from them.
2. On average you can import shrimp for ridiculously low prices, usually somewhere in the range between $0.05 to $0.30 per shrimp (yes, that's CENTS). Of course half or more of them already arrive dead in the US, but it's still profitable for such an outfit as AAG to try to sell the rest before they die. As long as nobody complains and actually wants their cash back, they can get away with such nonsense policies as "we will give you store credit." Not only do you have to pay somewhere in the range of $45.00 for shipping to even get your "store credit", but you will get another batch of half-dead and/or dead shrimp. It ends up being an endless vicious cycle. I speak from direct experience with AAG here.
The reasonable thing to do with imported shrimp would be to wait until the half-dead shrimp either die or recover before trying to sell them off to unassuming customers. That would be the only logical, ETHICAL and sensible thing to do AND would make the most business sense in the long run as you are trying to build a loyal and happy customer base, but go try to tell that to an outfit like AAG. Unfortunately, AAG is not alone. One should always be careful when buying shrimp and try to ascertain that the seller has a good reputation with other buyers for delivering healthy, alive shrimp. Even a "good" feedback on Aquabid does not guarantee that you will actually get healthy shrimp as auction website feedbacks are less than reliable in my experience. Especially beware of people who say that they will include "extras" as "insurance" in case some shrimp die in transit. That usually means that they count on losses during transit. So, in general buyer beware!
Thanks for posting your experience with that outfit. The more people speak up, the more warnings will be available for people who are thinking about buying shrimp there. The people who posted their experiences here are just the tip of the iceberg. I am fairly certain that there are a huge number of people out there who either don't know about this website (and hence could not read the warnings) or have simply accepted AAG's ridiculous claim that a few dead shrimp arriving at your door is normal (and that's with NEXT DAY service...unbelievable).
@Ecir
The section where they say "you should count on some losses from the stressful transit" kills me. They are trying to make it seem like it's normal that animals die. Again, this is with NEXT DAY service, their only shipping option! Anyone reading anything like this anywhere should stay away from that place.
@tapmxt1
You are right, bag buddies should NOT be used with shrimp. I never put anything in the bags I ship. Long time ago I performed an experiment with a red cherry shrimp. I put it in a bag and droped just a tiny fraction of a "bag buddy" in the bag. The shrimp suddenly started behaving irregularly. It looked it it was slowly getting paralyzed. So, I immediately took the shrimp out and put it back into its tank. Bag buddies work for fish but definitely not shrimp.
However, in this case (Arizona Aquatic Gardens) I am 100% sure that bag buddies are not the main problem. Even if they did not use bag buddies, which they didn't when I received dead shrimp from them over and over again (as they were trying to replace the dead shrimp with more dead and half-dead shrimp), you will get dead and half-dead shrimp if the shrimp in their holding tanks are ALREADY half-dead and dying. As you can see, such shrimp won't last even 24 hours in a bag and probably would have died anyway in AAG's holding tanks.
Imported shrimp already go through a lot of stress, but if you then keep them under overcrowded conditions with few, if any, water changes, then the shrimp will not only not recover, but their condition will worsen so that they die or are barely clinging to life. Then, these half-dead shrimp are packaged and sent out to customers. For such "businesses" it's a race against time: they want to sell as many shrimp as possible, no matter if they are half-dead or not, before they all die on them. Why does an outfit like AAG still import shrimp if they all die or are half dead? Two reasons:
1. There will always be new people who don't know what they are getting into and buy shrimp from them.
2. On average you can import shrimp for ridiculously low prices, usually somewhere in the range between $0.05 to $0.30 per shrimp (yes, that's CENTS). Of course half or more of them already arrive dead in the US, but it's still profitable for such an outfit as AAG to try to sell the rest before they die. As long as nobody complains and actually wants their cash back, they can get away with such nonsense policies as "we will give you store credit." Not only do you have to pay somewhere in the range of $45.00 for shipping to even get your "store credit", but you will get another batch of half-dead and/or dead shrimp. It ends up being an endless vicious cycle. I speak from direct experience with AAG here.
The reasonable thing to do with imported shrimp would be to wait until the half-dead shrimp either die or recover before trying to sell them off to unassuming customers. That would be the only logical, ETHICAL and sensible thing to do AND would make the most business sense in the long run as you are trying to build a loyal and happy customer base, but go try to tell that to an outfit like AAG. Unfortunately, AAG is not alone. One should always be careful when buying shrimp and try to ascertain that the seller has a good reputation with other buyers for delivering healthy, alive shrimp. Even a "good" feedback on Aquabid does not guarantee that you will actually get healthy shrimp as auction website feedbacks are less than reliable in my experience. Especially beware of people who say that they will include "extras" as "insurance" in case some shrimp die in transit. That usually means that they count on losses during transit. So, in general buyer beware!
Isn't AZ gardens located in Arizona? I would not order from a southern state because the shipping trucks do not provide temperature control for packages. Heat builds up in the shipping boxes and cannot escape. So in 90F weather (which it should be in Arizona in May) will build up to 100 or higher inside a plastic bag inside a cardboard box inside a dark painted metal truck (like UPS).
You have 1 level of excellent heat aquisition (dark painted metal truck) plus 3 layers of insulation (metal truck, cardboard box, and plastic bag) equals high temperatures, too high for shrimp. (On a side note, when I make passive solar heaters, I paint galvanized steel black, it is very efficient at getting hot in the sun!)
Bottom line, don't order from southern states, it's just too hot. OTOH, I hear Mustafa (plug plug) is in New York, a much more temperate state for this time of year (May).
You have 1 level of excellent heat aquisition (dark painted metal truck) plus 3 layers of insulation (metal truck, cardboard box, and plastic bag) equals high temperatures, too high for shrimp. (On a side note, when I make passive solar heaters, I paint galvanized steel black, it is very efficient at getting hot in the sun!)
Bottom line, don't order from southern states, it's just too hot. OTOH, I hear Mustafa (plug plug) is in New York, a much more temperate state for this time of year (May).
bulrush
I beg to differ.
I just received a shipment from Arizona last week, and all were fine.
There are alot of states that reach 90 . Even the northern ones.
The bottom line.
You need to buy Shrimp from a Seller /Breeder /Importer that Knows what they are doing, when it comes to packaging.
And cares about the Shrimp, they are selling.
John
I beg to differ.
I just received a shipment from Arizona last week, and all were fine.
There are alot of states that reach 90 . Even the northern ones.
The bottom line.
You need to buy Shrimp from a Seller /Breeder /Importer that Knows what they are doing, when it comes to packaging.
And cares about the Shrimp, they are selling.
John
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Shrimp&Snails
- Shrimpoholic
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:12 am
As long as the shrimp are shipped in THICK styrofoam boxes they will usually be fine even if they go to or come from hot areas of the country. That's just my experience. Unfortunately, in addition to shipping half-dead shrimp AAG and similar-acting places and individuals do NOT use styrofoam boxes at all. I always use them, winter or summer. In the end the well-being of the shrimp is more important than saving a few bucks on styrofoam boxes.
I guess that's what I meant. Shipping in cardboard boxes will not insulate the shrimp from high/low temperatures. But shipping in styrofoam boxes will.Mustafa wrote:As long as the shrimp are shipped in THICK styrofoam boxes they will usually be fine even if they go to or come from hot areas of the country.
Mustafa, how thick should the styrofoam be? Is 1 inch on each side enough (including top and bottom)?
Do you just line a cardboard box with 1 inch styrofoam?
1 inch is fine. I don't line the cardboard boxes. I use fully molded styrofoam boxes with tight fitting lid, which I put into larger cardboard boxes. I then put newspaper around the styrofoam box to stabilize it in the cardboard box. The newspaper adds an additional layer of insulation, although I think the styrofoam box should be enough. I'm not a big friend of lining cardboard boxes with styrofoam sheets as they don't fully seal and if not absolutely perfectly alingned they will allow air exchange with the outside, defeating their original purpose.bulrush wrote: Mustafa, how thick should the styrofoam be? Is 1 inch on each side enough (including top and bottom)?
Do you just line a cardboard box with 1 inch styrofoam?
>> On average you can import shrimp for ridiculously low prices, usually somewhere in the range between $0.05 to $0.30 per shrimp (yes, that's CENTS).
You are absolutely right about the cheap price of imported shrimps. They farm-raise shrimps in huge quantity.
I took a trip to Taiwan in Jan/Feb. Here is the retail price I saw in fish shops there:
- Amano: NT$100 for 10 or so (that is about US$3)(the cheapest one was NT$10 a shrimp and buy 10 get 5 free)
- Cherry: NT$100 for 10 or so (again, that is US$3)
That is the retail price. I can not image what is their cost.
In IL/US, with $3, I can buy half of an amano shrimp in PetLand ($4.99 each).
You are absolutely right about the cheap price of imported shrimps. They farm-raise shrimps in huge quantity.
I took a trip to Taiwan in Jan/Feb. Here is the retail price I saw in fish shops there:
- Amano: NT$100 for 10 or so (that is about US$3)(the cheapest one was NT$10 a shrimp and buy 10 get 5 free)
- Cherry: NT$100 for 10 or so (again, that is US$3)
That is the retail price. I can not image what is their cost.
In IL/US, with $3, I can buy half of an amano shrimp in PetLand ($4.99 each).