Amano shrimp problems (among other things)

carbon etc · Post by **carbon etc** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:06 pm

Most aquatic plants will grow better emersed than submersed because CO2 is something like 10,000 times more available from the air than from the water due to how slowly it diffuses.

Any plant growing under water is actually inherently handicapped. It's an evolutionary "sacrifice" you could say... a trade-off to spread to new ecological niches. When we planted tank people inject CO2, we're actually encouraging a supernatural rate of growth. The plants can certainly use the extra CO2, but it's not something they'd be accustomed to in nature (below the surface anyway).

Just thought I'd expand on that, because here's a hint to people better with shrimp than with plants... if you want a plant that will grow really fast and suck up a lot of nutrients, just let it be exposed to the surface of the water. It probably won't matter what plant it is, it'll do wonders for just about anything.

This is why duckweed is so unbelievably invasive to an aquarium. It gets all the CO2 it wants.

nemesis1337 · Post by **nemesis1337** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:29 am

i find the arguments made by mustafa a bit contradicting and confusing. it is TOTALLY OFF TOPIC but im curious

. you say the macro and micro will be slowly absorbed by the shrimps, but then i remember you mentioned liquid iodine is not necessary for shrimps development because it wouldn't be absorbed. so why would one element be absorbed over another?

Post by **Mustafa** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:55 am

So, let's remedy this confusion.

nemesis1337 wrote:you say the macro and micro will be slowly absorbed by the shrimps

They accumulate it. It can happen in many ways besides accumulation from the water (e.g. through food).

but then i remember you mentioned liquid iodine is not necessary for shrimps development because it wouldn't be absorbed.

Wrong. I never said Iodine is not necessary for shrimp. Actually, Iodine, in trace amounts, is necessary for health for most creatures I am aware of, including humans (hence iodized salt is sold in stores). I have pointed that out before. What I said is that it's not necessary to *dose* Iodine in a shrimp tank. That is still valid. There is more than enough Iodine in the tap water and food that they eat. Pretty much all commercial foods have iodine in them in one way or another, even if it is not listed (e.g. in ingredients like "shrimp meal", or even fish meal I believe). Plus, algae accumulate Iodine (and other things..) from the water column and shrimp eat algae, thereby accumulating whatever the algae accumulated. That's one way how they accumulate chemicals in their bodies.

Since my last discussion about Iodine I have done some research on how shrimp (and fish) can accumulate chemicals from the water column through their gills. So, yes, they can take up these chemicals directly from the water column, too. Information is always evolving...it's not static. As new information becomes available, it will be presented here. What I am *trying* to fight in this whole Iodine discussion is unscientific thinking. "I dose Iodine and my shrimp seem to be happy" is one such example. "that's why I am going to keep using Iodine." Such a person has no idea if the Iodine is the reason why his/her shrimp are happy but still decides that it is. However, such people propagated and are still propagating iodine dosing for years.

Having said that, I will be first one to tell the shrimp world that I was wrong and that Iodine should be dosed if I find *any* evidence warranting such an admission. To date, I just have not found any evidence.

Ok, this has gotten way off topic on so many levels. Let's try to get back to the last topic....whatever it was.

Dusko · Post by **Dusko** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:26 am

This is starting to be interesting

,
First to answer badflash;

Sorry you took offence. None was intended. Here are the plain facts though. Use ferts and over time the shrimp will die. You need to chose between what you think your plants need, and what experience shows happens to shrimp when you use ferts.

No offense was taken, I meant keeping shrimps and plants in friendly mode

(note that English is not my mother tong).
When you state that shrimps will die over time, what time is it? I thought that shrimps life spawn is approx 3-5 years, of course they will die of old age. Many experiences are proven wrong (I don't say this is the case) like this one http://www.jayscustomcomputers.com/wilm ... page1.html for example. That is why forums like this one exist. To clarify what is a myth and what right.

Mustafa wrote

You seem to be a planted tank person first and foremost and your focus is on your plants. Shrimp are probably just a "clean up crew" for you (even though your focus might change over time ).

There is no reason for putting me in categories like "planted tank person only"

I am as well as planted, a fish person and cat person to be precise

and not to forget a SHRIMP person. The reason I joined this forum is to learn. But I am not just a person that takes info for granted, but believe in research and in sharing that research.
In my 180 liter tank shrimps are not just a clean up crew, but part of a small community ECO-system, that I am trying to run as good as I can, without harming any of creatures kept. Note; it is not a breeding tank.

We use plants to keep our water parameters constant and eliminate potentially harmful things like nitrates, phosphates, heavy metals etc. from our aquaria. That's why we usually use fast growing, non-finicky plants such as Najas, horwort, various Egeria sp. etc..

I use the plants for the exact same reason

. Imagine that my Egeria densa died after two month because of the nitrAte (nitrogen) deficiency, it was starved. I didn't add any ferts but food, fish waste and plant material. But it went yellow and white and died. It was growing very fast for the first month though. My nitrAte levels and phosphates levels were on 0ppm (I am talking out of my own experience here). If there are too many fast growers in the tank it is very likely that plants will suffer form nutrient deficiency and start yellowing, which means releasing nutrient back into the water column, and that is something that can harm the shrimps since the plants are not able to uptake anything any more. Dead or half dead plants are no use in shrimp tanks I presume.
Do not misinterpret me guys. I am not trying to prove you wrong .
I am here to exchange experience so we all get out of this more knowledgeable.

If only one Macro or Micro nutrient is missing, the plant will slow down. This is a fact. Especially nitrogen (ammonia/ammonium/nitrite/nitrate), phosphates, Iron and Potassium.

The reason I quoted badflash was because of his reply. Without researching, what kind of plants (fast or slow growing) the other person has and quantity of plants + lights and possible CO2, the answer was a bit abrupt (not in a bad way

I guess I am missing English words).

You should stop using it. Your plants don't need it. Light and shrimp waste are all I use and my plants are green and lush.

This answer is kind of a same quality.

"I dose Iodine and my shrimp seem to be happy" is one such example. "that's why I am going to keep using Iodine." Such a person has no idea if the Iodine is the reason why his/her shrimp are happy but still decides that it is. However, such people propagated and are still propagating iodine dosing for years.

I can agree with the fact that slow growing plants (and they are slow to moderate growers depending on light and nutrient source) don't need extra fertilising in SHRIMP tanks that are stocked very well. For example 100 RCS in a 10 gallon, IMO. Since the shrimps will produce enough nutrients for slow to medium growers and a few stems of Hornworth. But if you are trying to prove that plants in my tank can survive without fertiliser I would nicely ask you to go back to my blog and read through it.
I agree that huge stocking levels need more fast growers and other way around but do not agree when someone state without previous research that someone should just like that stop using ferts.
NOTE; plants will not clean nutrient, heavy metals, etc from the water if they are nitrogen starved for example. But will rather make worse water quality and invite some cyanobacteria.

I know that this is not a planted tank forum ( I am not dumb

even though I crossed the line of 30ies) and I am not trying to make one.

I hope that I didn't insult any one , that was not my intention

.

This issue is just to complex and varies form one tank to another. Different stocking levels of shrimp will give different nutrient readings, different plant densities will give different readings... fast growers and slow growers to tap water readings... all will vary and aquarists will have different experiences

This 180 liter tank of mine does need or ferts or at least 200 more shrimps to keep those hungry Hygros nutrient satisfied

But one thing I have learned out of this discussion my ladies and gents, and that is that SHRIMPS will not do well if the tank is fertilised, so the best solution for my upcoming RCS tank is to plant it with Java moss, Dwarf Chain Sword and Anubias nana.

I am very happy that this forum exists and would like to contribute to it and learn from it, as much as my IQ allows me to

.

Kind regards, Dusko.

p.s. I do love my 5 Amanos and can't imagine anything bad would happen to them

. Here is one of my Amanos on the Amazon Sword leaf.

Post by **Mustafa** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:52 am

Dusko,

There is an easy solution to your problem. Just prune your plants to a level where they are not nitrate starved anymore. Deacrease the number of your plants instead of saying "at least 200 more shrimps to keep those hungry Hygros nutrient satisfied" or "I need 100 shrimp in a 10 gallon." If you use plants to *control* nitrates, phosphates etc. in a shrimp tank, as you stated, then you have to adjust the environment around the shrimp, not the shrimp around the environment. That includes removing excess plants every once in a while. If you have few shrimp, then use few plants. If your population grows, then let the plants grow and multiply with it. If the plants start yellowing, then prune your plants (i.e. decrease their numbers). It couldn't be easier. I don't know about Egeria, but I never have any die off problems with Najas. I can't imagine Egeria being any different if you regularly prune them to the right stocking levels for your tank.