Albino Cherry Shrimp?

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:06 pm

badflash

What color are the Eggs ?

Are they they Greenish/Brown ?

John

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:29 pm

Hahahah, BGS is perfect and then we can play BeeGees disco music for them

.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:51 pm

Newjohn wrote:badflash

What color are the Eggs ?

Are they they Greenish/Brown ?

John

Yes, they are greenish brown, just like the mother. She gets darker when she carries eggs. Next time one does I'll take a shot. From the behavior of the males, ot should not be long.

Post by **Mustafa** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:37 pm

badflash wrote: When they sit on java moss they just disapear.

They are that dark green? I have seen greenish Neocaridina sp. before, but they were never really dark green or anywhere close to the real green that the green shrimp from india are. If your strain is really that green, then it's definitely a worthwile strain to keep around and spread in the hobby.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:24 am

Mustafa wrote: They are that dark green? I have seen greenish Neocaridina sp. before, but they were never really dark green or anywhere close to the real green that the green shrimp from india are. If your strain is really that green, then it's definitely a worthwile strain to keep around and spread in the hobby.

No, not normally as green as normal green shrimp, but green, and as some stages the females can get very green, just like cherries get redder. They are more of an olive at that stage. I'll keep working on them. I think they are worth working on. I'm sure the RCS strain was not developed in just a few months.

The dissapearing act has more to due with their transparency than with their color. When they sit on the java moss they just blend in. Next time I get the camera out I'll take some shots.

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:50 pm

Mustafa, badflash

If these Came from RCS, or came in with ,RCS and bred with them.
Would these be considered Hybrids ?

Or after breeding them "Green", together, would the RCS Breed out , after the Greens Start breeding True ?

No disrespect intended to badflash.

I myself, are trying to breed the "Wild Type" that came in with my shipment of RCS.
To see what becomes of them.

John

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:03 pm

Newjohn wrote:Mustafa, badflash

If these Came from RCS, or came in with ,RCS and bred with them.
Would these be considered Hybrids ?

Or after breeding them "Green", together, would the RCS Breed out , after the Greens Start breeding True ?

No disrespect intended to badflash.

I myself, are trying to breed the "Wild Type" that came in with my shipment of RCS.
To see what becomes of them.

John

I'm not sure what disrespect you didn't intend

None taken.

What you are talking about is exactly how I got mine. I don't know if I just got lucky, or if anyone can do it. Once you see a characteristic you want, Isolate it from others that do not share that characteristic. In my case I had several females and one male that was a little brown. Each generation I pull out all the ones without the green coloration. I'm up to around generation 3 now.

Until they breed true I believe the correct term would be hybrid. Once they breed true they would be a strain.

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:33 pm

Disrespect

In some circles
If you are a purest, making Hybrids is a major NO-NO.

If it is a color variation, well, that is something else.

It all depends on how you see it.

After reading your posts, I regret, getting rid of all of my clear offspring.

I did have a "ORANGE" Male, And I mean orange.
I put him in with my very Red, RCS females.
I hope a few of his offspring will show up.

Sorry to say
Before I got my new camera, he went to the big Shrimp bowl in the sky.

John

Post by **Mustafa** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:43 pm

badflash wrote: Until they breed true I believe the correct term would be hybrid. Once they breed true they would be a strain.

Hybrid actually means that you have mixed offspring from two different species. So, even if you mix a red N. denticulata sinensis with a wild type one, it's not a hybrid. It's just a mix of color variations within the species.

The issue with the so called "wild type" Neocaridina is that they might not all be N. denticulata sinensis, so some of you guys probably have some true hybrids running around in your tanks. Even if your hybrids start breeding true, they are still hybrids and you have a hybrid strain. Most mollies you see out there are hybrids as even the true-breeding strains have all kinds of different Poecilia species mixed into them. Hence, most molly straines are hybrid strains. Hope this clarifies it.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:40 pm

I thought two different species could not produce fertile offspring by definition, except where there was physical separation of the species like with polar bears and grizzlies. When I've saved seed from hybrid plants, the seeds are fertile, they just don't produce the same hybids plants, only a portion, but the offspring are fertile. I thought if you crossed two species you'd get a mule, if you got anything.

Do these terms change when you go from plants to animals? Is there a solid definition of species, hybrid, straine, etc? Just trying to learn here. My last biology course was 1972 and things have probably evolves some. With a discussion like this we need to have common terms or there is no understanding.

TKD · Post by **TKD** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:16 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... -bear.html

Was that what you were thinking of?

Some species can still interbreed if they have not drifted evolutionarily to far apart. A dog and a coyote can interbreed and have viable offspring but a dog and a fox can not produce offspring.

TKD
Oh and FYI there are cases of females mules producing foals... all be it rarely.

But back to shrimp...

Post by **Mustafa** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:55 pm

badflash wrote:I thought two different species could not produce fertile offspring by definition, except where there was physical separation of the species like with polar bears and grizzlies. I thought if you crossed two species you'd get a mule, if you got anything.
Is there a solid definition of species, hybrid, straine, etc?

The problem is that morphological species classifications are man-made and not a law of nature. The vast majority of species classifications have been made based on physical characteristics instead of modern genetic analysis. Hence, there are many animals out there that are much more closely related than their seperation into different species might lead you to believe. Also, there are some animals out there that should be different species, but are thrown into the same species group as subspecies (like various Caridina babaulti subspecies). I hope this situation changes in the future. With taxonomically classified species hybrids are possible and many of them are fertile. The "Liger" (lion father, tiger mother) comes to mind. Coyotes and Wolves can hybridize, too, and produce fertile offspring. However, a German Shepherd mating with a Chihuahua does not produce species hybrids, but just race hybrids. They are variations of the same species mating with each other. I thought the word "hybrid" was restricted to interspecies mixes, but apparently it can also be used for various "races" of animals, such as dogs, and plants etc. within the same species. I don't like using the word "hybrid" for such mixes as it can be confusing and has a totally different meaning, within a genetic context, from the word "hybrid" used for interspecific mixes.

Then, there is the concept of biological species. The approximate definition of that is that a species is a reproductively isolated (i.e. can't or rather should not be able to mate with another species) population. In other words, species within this group can mate with each other but don't usually mate with other populations *in nature.* Of course there are even exceptions to this, as speciation is a fluid process. Species develop over time through geographical/reproductive isolation. Species that don't usually reproduce in nature, but split in geographically recent times can reproduce in captivity, especially when the choice of a mate is not given (i.e. you take a male and a female of two related species and put them into the same tank/cage without providing a partner of the same species).

I am actually a believer of the biological species concept. Before, only reproductive experiments were available to "test" this concept. Nowadays we have gene technology to test how closely various species are related, or if they different species at all.

The problem with shrimp, and many other classes of animals, is that species have been established based *solely* on morphological differences. The authors of various papers had no clue about the real genetic relationship between those so called species. This is, unfortunately, still the main method of describing new shrimp species today. So, for all practical purposes most shrimp species are only morphological species but not necessarily biological ones. A major revision based on the biological species concept (aided by genetic analysis) is long due and will turn the scientific shrimp world upside down. Let's just hope that happens sooner than later....

The concept of "hybrid," on the other hand, seems to be fairly clearly defined. Here is a definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid

I used to not like Wikipedia, but it has gained a lot more in popularity and with its popularity more people started quality-controlling it, including academics it seems. Hence, it's a lot more reliable than it used to be, although I would still double-check any scientific information on scientific websites.

Here is a fairly interesting write-up on the problematic of defining what a species is:

http://members.aol.com/darwinpage/mayrspecies.htm

Gregor Samsa Mendel · Post by **Gregor Samsa Mendel** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:02 pm

Your definition of "species" is correct. The problem with the word "hybrid" is that it can have two different meanings, depending on the context. It can mean the offspring of two different species (like your example of the mule), in which the offspring generally is sterile or has reduced fertility. It can also mean the offspring of two different strains or varieties of the same species (like between different breeds of dogs). Shrimp hobbyists avoid hybrids between species, because the offspring might be infertile. However, if your shrimp population is inbred for too long, that can also cause problems, which you solve by getting a hold of someone else's shrimp and hybridizing them with yours.

Another problem is that shrimp classification is in a state of confusion--something that today is classified as a species, may be reclassified tomorrow as several species, or it may be grouped together with another species. So, when you breed your strain of shrimp with a new strain, you may actually be crossing it with a different species. Things get even more confusing when you are dealing with strains of shrimp (like RCS or CRS) that probably never occurred in the wild. It's not like you're planning on releasing these back to the wild, so hybridizing with related (or even unrelated) strains in an attempt to improve your stock is just fine, in my opinion.

Hope this reduces (not increases!) any confusion.

Gregor Samsa Mendel · Post by **Gregor Samsa Mendel** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:08 pm

And it took me so long to write this last post, that it was redundant by the time I finally finished it. Oh well.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:44 pm

Thank you all for helping to clear up this subject and reinforcing the explaination.

So, for all practical purposes most shrimp species are only morphological species but not necessarily biological ones. A major revision based on the biological species concept (aided by genetic analysis) is long due and will turn the scientific shrimp world upside down. Let's just hope that happens sooner than later....

Yes, this revision needs to happen soon