Zapisto, do you happen to have any pics of your fish room? I'd love to see the setup on something so impressive! At my house we only have 13 tanks but they are spread throughout.i have a fish room of 50 tanks
Ecir
Wild type Shrimp or Selective Bred ?
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Neonshrimp
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The Fisherman
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The FisherMan
I like to keep a record of
Who I purchased them from, Name and Auction Site Name
Or
If they are Store Bought, I try to get the name of the Whole Saler
The date I purchased them.
And when they are sexable, List male/Female.
I started Keeping Daily PH/ Hardness/Temp .
Dates of when the females started carring eggs.
This one, is only with some of my smaller Populations.
John
I like to keep a record of
Who I purchased them from, Name and Auction Site Name
Or
If they are Store Bought, I try to get the name of the Whole Saler
The date I purchased them.
And when they are sexable, List male/Female.
I started Keeping Daily PH/ Hardness/Temp .
Dates of when the females started carring eggs.
This one, is only with some of my smaller Populations.
John
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YuccaPatrol
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- Location: Burning-Ham, Alabama
The concept of a shrimp pedigree is a good one, but the true origins of our dwarf shrimp tends to be so difficult to ever figure out that there might not be much useful information to gain in exchange for a LOT of work creating this catalog.
As an example, the vast majority of Red Cherry Shrimp in the US are descendants of only a very small initial population (or populations), and all of them would be descendants of a single odd-ball red shrimp that someone in Asia noticed in their tank.
I think back to when I used to breed doves. I got a reputation for having very smart birds, and magicians who use birds in their acts spread the word that my doves were something special. Let me see if I can describe what I did and still keep the genetics as simple as possible.
Why were my white doves so much better for a trained animal act? It was because I recognized that the readily available standard albino ringneck dove suffered from severe inbreeding and their wild type intelligence had been lost in favor of their white feathers. To produce smart doves, I acquired newly imported wild caught doves and crossed them with my stupid white birds. After several generations, I had breeding pairs which looked like the grey colored wild doves but produced offspring that included 1/4 smart white doves. These are the ones I saved for the magicians. They had been selected for both the desirable albino coloration and for their wild type intelligence. When these smart birds were bred together, I could produce 100% smart white doves. However, in the process, I did produce a LOT of birds that became perigrine falcon food for the college raptor program.
So back to shrimp. At this point, we simply cannot go back and trace the lineage of our Cherry shrimp to make a pedigree worth more than the paper it is printed on.
But there is a solution if you truly wanted to have pedigreed shrimp. Start with the Cherries that you have and selectively breed them with newly collected wild type shrimp. After several generations of careful selection, you will have a population with the hardiness of wild type shrimp and the desirable red coloration.
When you have this population breeding true with all red offspring, you could then give your strain a name and begin a pedigree.
As an example, the vast majority of Red Cherry Shrimp in the US are descendants of only a very small initial population (or populations), and all of them would be descendants of a single odd-ball red shrimp that someone in Asia noticed in their tank.
I think back to when I used to breed doves. I got a reputation for having very smart birds, and magicians who use birds in their acts spread the word that my doves were something special. Let me see if I can describe what I did and still keep the genetics as simple as possible.
Why were my white doves so much better for a trained animal act? It was because I recognized that the readily available standard albino ringneck dove suffered from severe inbreeding and their wild type intelligence had been lost in favor of their white feathers. To produce smart doves, I acquired newly imported wild caught doves and crossed them with my stupid white birds. After several generations, I had breeding pairs which looked like the grey colored wild doves but produced offspring that included 1/4 smart white doves. These are the ones I saved for the magicians. They had been selected for both the desirable albino coloration and for their wild type intelligence. When these smart birds were bred together, I could produce 100% smart white doves. However, in the process, I did produce a LOT of birds that became perigrine falcon food for the college raptor program.
So back to shrimp. At this point, we simply cannot go back and trace the lineage of our Cherry shrimp to make a pedigree worth more than the paper it is printed on.
But there is a solution if you truly wanted to have pedigreed shrimp. Start with the Cherries that you have and selectively breed them with newly collected wild type shrimp. After several generations of careful selection, you will have a population with the hardiness of wild type shrimp and the desirable red coloration.
When you have this population breeding true with all red offspring, you could then give your strain a name and begin a pedigree.
YuccaPatrol
I think we need Diversity not Pedigree.
Say, like the Tigers I just Purchased.
When I get them to breed.
And I can find someone who Purchased, some imported "Wild" ones and was able to get them to breed.
I would like to aquire some of the offspring.
To keep the "Wild" attributes, and just not have a bunch of dumb Shrimp.
"refer to the dove story"
The reason I keep the name of the people I purchase from. Is that I would like to keep the Diversity.
Add new Breeding stock, now and again.
As for RCS.
I would try to aquire other selective bred "for color". to enhance the color of my own. to make dumb Shrimp
"Refer to dove Story.
Just my Ideas
Good or Bad
John
I think we need Diversity not Pedigree.
Say, like the Tigers I just Purchased.
When I get them to breed.
And I can find someone who Purchased, some imported "Wild" ones and was able to get them to breed.
I would like to aquire some of the offspring.
To keep the "Wild" attributes, and just not have a bunch of dumb Shrimp.
"refer to the dove story"
The reason I keep the name of the people I purchase from. Is that I would like to keep the Diversity.
Add new Breeding stock, now and again.
As for RCS.
I would try to aquire other selective bred "for color". to enhance the color of my own. to make dumb Shrimp
"Refer to dove Story.
Just my Ideas
Good or Bad
John
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The Fisherman
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Wow, thanks for the information YuccaPatrol!
I wasn't nescesarily saying to track WAY back, but more as a way like what NewJohn does, tracking where you got it from, what kind they were etc.
I think it would look something like this: (as an example, the shrimp will be a RCS) It would be for a population, rather then an individual, although it most certainly could be used as an individual.
***
Name: Neocaridina denticulata sinensis
Type: Dwarf shrimp
Category: Cat1, completely supressed (I really liked Zapistos category system)
Origin: (captive bred or wild caought)
Date purchased: 0/0/00
Place purchased:My LFS, whose wholesaler is ___. Or "received from The Fisherman"
Grade: (I dont know if all shrimp have grades)
Parents:
Parent A (because sometimes you don't know which one was male and female...I think)
Origin:
Place purchased: (if possible/aplicable)
Grade: (if possible/applicable. I still dont know on this one)
Parent B
Origin:
Place purchased:
Grade:
***
This could certainly be modified to go as far back as you need to.
Perhaps you could even have a "code" or "matrix" for each shrimp population, such as a series of letters/numbers, and then add parent A and Parent Bs "matrix" together, to create the offsprings "identity". heh, I thought of this because of a article on angel fish genetics that I read.
Obviously I don't know everything, and I doubt that what I just created is complete in any way and that there are things I forgot/didnt know.
what do you guys think about the general idea? I would be interested to know what Mustafa thinks too. Perhaps I am "barking up the wrong tree" though.
-John (AKA: The Puffer Ninja)
I wasn't nescesarily saying to track WAY back, but more as a way like what NewJohn does, tracking where you got it from, what kind they were etc.
I think it would look something like this: (as an example, the shrimp will be a RCS) It would be for a population, rather then an individual, although it most certainly could be used as an individual.
***
Name: Neocaridina denticulata sinensis
Type: Dwarf shrimp
Category: Cat1, completely supressed (I really liked Zapistos category system)
Origin: (captive bred or wild caought)
Date purchased: 0/0/00
Place purchased:My LFS, whose wholesaler is ___. Or "received from The Fisherman"
Grade: (I dont know if all shrimp have grades)
Parents:
Parent A (because sometimes you don't know which one was male and female...I think)
Origin:
Place purchased: (if possible/aplicable)
Grade: (if possible/applicable. I still dont know on this one)
Parent B
Origin:
Place purchased:
Grade:
***
This could certainly be modified to go as far back as you need to.
Perhaps you could even have a "code" or "matrix" for each shrimp population, such as a series of letters/numbers, and then add parent A and Parent Bs "matrix" together, to create the offsprings "identity". heh, I thought of this because of a article on angel fish genetics that I read.
Obviously I don't know everything, and I doubt that what I just created is complete in any way and that there are things I forgot/didnt know.
what do you guys think about the general idea? I would be interested to know what Mustafa thinks too. Perhaps I am "barking up the wrong tree" though.
-John (AKA: The Puffer Ninja)
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The Fisherman
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Hehe, I think I am OCD as well, and sometimes I go a little crazy with the information lol. I know how you feel.Newjohn wrote: I am OCD.
So I like alot of information.
Your very welcome!Newjohn wrote: The FisherMan
Thank You for the input/Reference
I'd love to hear anyone elses input on this too. If need be, and with Mustafas aproval and permission, I could help make a downloadable file too. I'm a graphic designer so I could make it look cool too
I'm sure that what I have written would require a lot more tweakage.
-John (AKA: The Puffer Ninja)
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Neonshrimp
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At least being OCD has its uses! I like your ideas so far and as you said, it is up to Mustafa to okay the downloadable file.Hehe, I think I am OCD as well, and sometimes I go a little crazy with the information lol. I know how you feel.
I'd love to hear anyone elses input on this too. If need be, and with Mustafas aproval and permission, I could help make a downloadable file too. I'm a graphic designer so I could make it look cool too
I'm sure that what I have written would require a lot more tweakage.
-John (AKA: The Puffer Ninja)
Thanks
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YuccaPatrol
- Shrimp Master
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- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:41 pm
- Location: Burning-Ham, Alabama
John,Newjohn wrote:YuccaPatrol
I think we need Diversity not Pedigree.
As for RCS.
I would try to aquire other selective bred "for color". to enhance the color of my own.
John
I agree with you that the important point we should focus on is increasing genetic diversity in our breeding populations.
I don't get the impression that many (any?) of us are making an effort to select for the brightest, darkest RCS. This would be a worthwhile effort though, and is something I can imagine doing in the future as another side project.
The problem I see is that the coloration of the shrimp vary not only by their genetics, but also with environmental conditions. An incredibly dark female may not appear as brightly colored with varied environmental condtions such as light/dark cycles, varying water chemistry, or lifecycle/breeding stages. I've noticed (but can't absolutely confirm) that the brightest shrimp seem to be the most mature females when they are carrying eggs, particularly toward the time they are to hatch.
To compound the problem, because males do not express the red coloration very strongly, it is hard to know how to choose a male to mate with a desirable female.
If I were to do this, I would select a few desirable berried females and transfer them to a new tank so that their offspring could be isolated from the original population. I would allow these females to breed with their offspring and allow the offspring to breed with each other. This process can be repeated until you are satisfied with the coloration of the offspring.
Of course, such selection ends up decreasing the genetic diversity in the population, so we are left with shrimp with better coloration but a smaller gene pool. . . .
One note to all: I do think that this is one of the best discussions we have had here. Great ideas are coming forth and I am sure that this is a strong sign that the hobby is beginning to mature in the US.
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YuccaPatrol
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Neonshrimp
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This procedure would work out very well. At the point of knowing the offspring are of desired quality/color we can then use the male shrimp (of this group) to mate with with selected females of another gene pool.If I were to do this, I would select a few desirable berried females and transfer them to a new tank so that their offspring could be isolated from the original population. I would allow these females to breed with their offspring and allow the offspring to breed with each other. This process can be repeated until you are satisfied with the coloration of the offspring.
Of course, such selection ends up decreasing the genetic diversity in the population, so we are left with shrimp with better coloration but a smaller gene pool. . . .
One note to all: I do think that this is one of the best discussions we have had here. Great ideas are coming forth and I am sure that this is a strong sign that the hobby is beginning to mature in the US.
I could not agree with you more about your final note to all.
Thanks