Ultimate - removing chloramines and chelating heavy metals

Rainbowfish · Post by **Rainbowfish** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:50 pm

As I've been looking around on the forum I notice for shrimp that removal of chloramines are pretty important and also the subject of heavy metals such as copper toxicity has also come up. So much so that it has been suggested that hot water not even be used for adjusting the temperature of the water because hot water might extract more copper/lead out of the hot water heater or the copper & soldered pipes on the way to the tap. In the wintertime, not using hot water to help bring the water up to temperature is just not a time or cost effective measure for me, especially when I need to be changing anywhere from 500 to 700 gallons every other week.

Until recently when I made my water changing barrels up for my fish and shrimp water changes I would always use Amquel and Novaqua. Amquel, because we have chloramines in our water and Novaqa because it's supposed to be a good conditioner and also removes heavy metals. I have now switched to a product called Ultimate which combines both features of the previous products. So far I haven't had any problems with my fish (50% change every other week) or shrimp ~ 25% weekly using either of these approaches. Now I may be keeping the dreaded copper beast at bay by draining my hot water tank so frequently or I may just have enough of a scale on those pipes that it doesn't really matter anymore. Or the products are doing what they are supposed to do and tying up the copper with chelates. I was wondering if anyone else out there who previously had what they thought was a copper problem had it solved after they used either Novaqua, Ultimate or other heavy metal removing product? Any other thoughts positive or negative on the use of Ultimate, Amquel + or Novaqua in the culture of shrimp?

thanks,

gary

TKD · Post by **TKD** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:33 pm

Have you ever used prime?
It works well and most of us here use it.

TKD

Rainbowfish · Post by **Rainbowfish** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:26 pm

No, don't really care to either. The whole point was looking for a water treatment that would not only knock out Chloramine, the ammonia and the chlorine component but also removal of heavy metals such as copper. Prime doesn't remove heavy metals so wouldn't be something that would be helpful for this potential problem. I had heard that there had been some suggestions that there are dechlorinators out there that are not very shrimp friendly. Just want to make sure that these combinations (amquel + Novaqua combo) or Ultimate have been working. Wanted to see if there was someone who felt that they may have had a copper problem and then solved it with the addition of Ultimate or Novaqua.

yoink · Post by **yoink** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:11 pm

Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

From seachem's website.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:18 pm

Most other products, like Amquel & Stress Coat, binds with the chlorine. Unfortunately, the bi-product is ammonia (ammonia + chlorine = chloramine). Therefore, Prime is a better solution, since it removes ammonia as well.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:19 pm

Now I may be keeping the dreaded copper beast at bay by draining my hot water tank so frequently or I may just have enough of a scale on those pipes that it doesn't really matter anymore.

If you are worried about copper, don't use any hot water. I think that for most homes, copper from the pipes is a myth, but I can't rule it out except where I've tested for it. I've tested my hot water and have nothing. Copper ions are more soluable in hot water, but only marginally so.

Most of the issues I've had lately are actually related to chloramine and not metals, so you may want to look into that. I've done a little research and have found that water conditioners do not work "instantly" as advertised. It takes a minimum of 4 minutes to break the chloramine bond, then additional time to react all the chlorine and amonia and binds the nitrates. The reaction is pretty complicated.

I also looked into using a carbon filter, but I found that this is unworkable for me with chloramine. It takes 2 carbon filters in series with flow restricted to < 1 gpm to break down the chloramine to reasonable levels, and then does not remove the amonia by-product. If plain chlorine were used it would work fine. What I am currently doing is using Amquel+ which is much the same as most of these other products. It binds metals, breaks down the chloramine, then reacts the chlorine and amonia. I recirculate the water for 10 minutes in a 30 gallon garbage can, and so far so good.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:39 pm

If you are worried about copper, don't use any hot water.

I think Rainbowfish said that this is not an option for the following reason:

In the wintertime, not using hot water to help bring the water up to temperature is just not a time or cost effective measure for me, especially when I need to be changing anywhere from 500 to 700 gallons every other week.

By the way what is the size/number of your tanks?

Rainbowfish · Post by **Rainbowfish** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Like I said in the original post - not using hot water to bring my water barrels up to temperature is not an option in the winter!!! That is why I'm wondering if anyone who had a copper problem or thought they had a copper problem and solved it with something like Novaqua or Ultimate.

I have 1500 gallons of fishtanks and shrimptanks so I need to change at least 300 gallons or more a week. I fill my barrels, getting the temps reasonable or a few degrees higher. Treat the connected barrels of 150 gallons total with dechlor and let it do it's thing with the pond pumps busy keeping the water flowing. After an hour or so I can then start filling the groups of tanks that I've drained. 50% water changes for the rainbows and most other fish and 25-30% for the shrimp. It's incredibly inefficient to fill several buckets of cold water for the shrimp only tanks, dechlor, wait a day for the buckets to warm up then slosh water all over the fishroom by pouring it into the tank instead of using the extremely efficient pond pump and remote control to deliver it from the 150 gallon barrel system. Maybe I'm just worrying too much as I have always done 50% water changes using this method on my 210 planted tank that was loaded with Amano shrimp. I never lost any of them during those water changes. If the other shrimp like cherrys and bees are more sensitive though then I may still have something to worry about.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:07 pm

I see your situation, with 1500 gallons

!

Many of us in this forum have used Seachem Prime typically without much problems. You may want to let it work for at least 10 minutes just to be safe for the following reasons:
viewtopic.php?t=2223&start=0

If what you are using is working keep it up, and maybe you are helping others with the same situation

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:09 pm

The copper issue in pipes, from what I remember reading somewhere, exists in homes older than 50 years.

zapisto · Post by **zapisto** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:11 pm

did you try/think of inline heater for your hot water problem ?

well, what is the size of your barrels , i manage a fishroom wih more than 3000 gallons and we preparing our water a days before the actual water changer days, and use probably the same system to dispatch the water to the tank we just drained. even there we have to use inline heater.
the difference between you and us can be the size of the barrels we use to store the water before water change.
we also have an other step because we mix RO and tap.

just my 2 cents.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:24 am

In addition to Zapistos post, Raibowfish, since you are using a water barrel, why not just stick a heater in there? I use a 37 gallon tank for storing water and I treat it with Prime and heat it as well. I use this for WC in my shrimp tanks and also my L-046 zebra tanks.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:37 am

Just how cold is your tap water? Mine is around 55 degrees right now. I do a 50% water change weekly on most of my tanks. I've never seen a thermal related problem in any of my inverts or fish.

What is it that makes you think that adding cold water isn't an option?

If you have tested your hot water and found not copper, then I would not worry. I also don't worry about copper in my hot water, but it would not be practicle for me to try as I'd use all the hot water up before I was done with the water changes, and my family would be mad at me.

You must have a tankless water heater to keep up with that much hot water.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:02 am

If you have tested your hot water and found not copper, then I would not worry.

Very good point, thanks badflash!

but it would not be practicle for me to try as I'd use all the hot water up before I was done with the water changes, and my family would be mad at me.

Been there, doone that and it was not a good day at the breakfast table

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:42 pm

I did a little more checking on copper in water supplies. If you have soft water there is much more to worry about than if you have hard water. Soft water tends to disolve copper. Soft tends to be acidic. If you have good hard basic water copper should not be an issue.