Introduction and oak leaves question

[arisk]

I've just registered, but actually have been reading through the forum and website for quite a while. I've intensified my reading recently after acquiring some Cherry Shrimp.
There's lots of good info. Thanks to all.

Although almost every question can be answered by searching past posts, I encountered a discrepancy and hope it can be clarified.

While looking for info on the use of Oak leaves, I found a two year old post by Mustafa in which he retracts his recommendation to use Oak leaves.
viewtopic.php?t=350

In all other more recent posts their use is recommended.
What changed between these posts?

[Kenshin]

I believe I would have witnessed the same observations right now like Mustafa has. Since I have moved out all of my shrimps to my planted tank (mostly just foreground plants of Hemianthus callitrichoides), with 2 tiny pieces of oak leaves (and 3 pieces of driftwood in which one has Fissiden moss attached), I have not experienced any more shrimp deaths. I believe I was placing too many oak leaves (big leaves) in the beginning (10+) and the bioload was finally too much for the Snowball and Green shrimps. Now the Green and Snowball shrimps are happy in a lower or higher pH water condition. That is also probably why my power filter was overworked with the bioload and the high accumulation of waste (nitrate and etc.). I never experienced that kind of problem before until I introduced the leaves into my shrimps tanks. So my suggestion is this: just add 1 small to medium size dried oak leaf to a tank and that is it. Keep feeding as usual (of course do not overfeed).

[Neonshrimp]

This is what I love about this hobby. You can never sit down and say: "Now I know it all and there is nothing more to learn." There is ALWAYS more to learn, discover and more methods to pefect. That's what keeps things exciting.

Mustafa

So true!

I use the most brown and dry leaves I can find and soak them for at least a week before I use them. I put 3-4 in my main shrimp tank at a time and the shrimp pick them clean in 3-4 weeks so I take out 2 finished ones and add 2 new ones so there are always some new leaves available. I found this to work and have had no noticeable problems with water conditions or shrimp health.

[badflash]

This area is one that could use a true study. Mustafa's conclusion was a good educated guess based on a lot of experience, but I don''t see any controlled conditions that prove cause & effect.

Removal of a large amount of plants at one time can surely cause a mini-cycle and result in shrimp death. Using leaves avoids that problem and better simulates their natural environment.

In my own experiment I know that shrimp do better with leaves than with lots of hornwort (a VERY fast growing plant) but so far, not as well as a tank with no leaves & lots of java moss and java fern.

My crays and ghost shrimp do great in the hornwort tank as they are not reliant on the stuff from the moss or the leaves.

[Mustafa]

Hello arisk and welcome to the forum!

When it comes to shrimp and the best conditions they need to live and breed you will sooner or later have to deal with "balancing" things. In other words, food is good, but too much food is bad. Similarly, leaves can be good, but too many leaves are bad. Algae are good (food and nitrate, phosphate, heavy metal etc. "sponges.") but too many algae are bad (indicate too much "pollution" in your water, add to the "bioload" and produce too much CO2 at night at extreme levels). Similarly, java moss can help keep the water suitable for shrimp (algae do a much better job in my opinion) but too much of the stuff will make things unstable (you'll notice it at the latest when you prune significant amounts and see shrimp deaths a few days later).

When I wrote what I wrote two years ago, I had put way too many leaves in my tank and did not feed much relying primarily on the leaves. Experience has shown that you cannot just rely on leaves for food. You need to feed. That solves the "don't have good reproduction issue." As indicated in the two year old thread, the problem with *too many leaves* is that the organisms that cause the decomposition of the leaves also compete with nitrifying bacteria for nitrogenous compounds (such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...etc.) and *can* wipe off filter bacteria. Once the leaves are decomposed you don't have filter bacteria and the shrimp start dying. Also, such bacteria use huge amounts of oxygen to decompose the leaves, which could be a problem for the shrimp. Lastly, in a small, closed system like an aquarium the decomposition of huge amounts of leaves adds to the carbon bioload and degrades water quality.

That's why it's ok and can be beneficial to have a few leaves in a tank (1-3 in a 10 should be fine) and disastrous to have too many leaves. As with pretty much everything in a shrimp tank, it's all a balancing act.

[RCSGuy]

Hello arisk and welcome to the forum!

When it comes to shrimp and the best conditions they need to live and breed you will sooner or later have to deal with "balancing" things. In other words, food is good, but too much food is bad. Similarly, leaves can be good, but too many leaves are bad. Algae are good (food and nitrate, phosphate, heavy metal etc. "sponges.") but too many algae are bad (indicate too much "pollution" in your water, add to the "bioload" and produce too much CO2 at night at extreme levels). Similarly, java moss can help keep the water suitable for shrimp (algae do a much better job in my opinion) but too much of the stuff will make things unstable (you'll notice it at the latest when you prune significant amounts and see shrimp deaths a few days later).

When I wrote what I wrote two years ago, I had put way too many leaves in my tank and did not feed much relying primarily on the leaves. Experience has shown that you cannot just rely on leaves for food. You need to feed. That solves the "don't have good reproduction issue." As indicated in the two year old thread, the problem with *too many leaves* is that the organisms that cause the decomposition of the leaves also compete with nitrifying bacteria for nitrogenous compounds (such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...etc.) and *can* wipe off filter bacteria. Once the leaves are decomposed you don't have filter bacteria and the shrimp start dying. Also, such bacteria use huge amounts of oxygen to decompose the leaves, which could be a problem for the shrimp. Lastly, in a small, closed system like an aquarium the decomposition of huge amounts of leaves adds to the carbon bioload and degrades water quality.

That's why it's ok and can be beneficial to have a few leaves in a tank (1-3 in a 10 should be fine) and disastrous to have too many leaves. As with pretty much everything in a shrimp tank, it's all a balancing act.

Nicely explained Mustafa. Thanks for the info I will definetly keep this in mind today when I go to a local park to collect Oak Leaves for my future RCS tank Also, would a piece of tree bark work similar to a dried oak leaf? And can this be used as driftwood in the form of anchoring plants and growing algae? Thank You.

[arisk]

Yes, thanks for the explanation.
Guess I'll be leaf collecting too.

[Mustafa]

Nicely explained Mustafa. Thanks for the info I will definetly keep this in mind today when I go to a local park to collect Oak Leaves for my future RCS tank Also, would a piece of tree bark work similar to a dried oak leaf? And can this be used as driftwood in the form of anchoring plants and growing algae? Thank You.

I have no idea if bark works or not. I have never tried bark. I did have some adverse experiences with self-collected driftwood though. The shrimp were all over the wood for a few days and then they started getting less and less active and stopped picking altogether at some point (before they started dying). It might have been the type of wood or the fact that it probably decomposed too quickly, but I just wanted to share that experience. Generally, you don't want anything that rots away too quickly in your tank for the same reasons mentioned above.

[Neonshrimp]

It might have been the type of wood or the fact that it probably decomposed too quickly, but I just wanted to share that experience. Generally, you don't want anything that rots away too quickly in your tank for the same reasons mentioned above.

Hi Mustafa, do you remember what type of wood this was so we can avoid using it by accident .

Thanks

[Mustafa]

Hi Mustafa, do you remember what type of wood this was so we can avoid using it by accident .

Thanks

I have no idea what type of wood it was. I had collected it from the Arizona desert near Tucscon. So, it's safe to assume it's one of the tree species that naturally occurs there. It was a very hard wood that sank immediately when submerged in a bucket.

[RCSGuy]

Mustafa, thank you for sharing your experience with us I won't use the bark, just in case

[Guybrush]

Is there any reason to use dechorinated tap water over old aquarium water? I use the water I take out when I do water changes for my fish tank. Would old aquarium water be better for micro-organism growth or is there no difference?

Anyway my RCS love new leaves (click on the pictures to enlarge):

Magnolia leaves:


Japanese maple leaves (these usually only last 1-2 days):

[Neonshrimp]

I think that old aquarium water would be better for establishing microorganisms on the leaves since the microorganism are already in the old water.

[YuccaPatrol]

My shrimp really like leaves that I pull from the leaf litter in the stream behind our house. Already full of natural goodies to pick off and eat.

[Neonshrimp]

Hi Mustafa, do you remember what type of wood this was so we can avoid using it by accident .

Thanks

I have no idea what type of wood it was. I had collected it from the Arizona desert near Tucscon. So, it's safe to assume it's one of the tree species that naturally occurs there. It was a very hard wood that sank immediately when submerged in a bucket.

I have just had a major loss of snowball shrimp ! I had bought various pieces of driftwood from a local fish hobbyist when he left the hobby and I used one small piece in my snowball shrimp tank.

I placed it in the tank a few weeks ago with some moss and fissiden attached. Over this period I started to have problems with my spixi snails dying, also my plants were turning yellow and a petite nana died!

I also had losses of one snowball shrimp ever couple of days dispite water changes. I thought they must have been weak from poor conditions at the pet store I now only have one shriimp left which I have moved out. There is a noticeably strong sour odor since I stopped changing the water. I think the piece of wood was leaching something out that was poisonous to plants and animals!

This has been a difficult lesson but I will remember the signs and be more vigilant next time.