Red Cherry Shrimp Dieoff and potassium

Opopanax · Post by **Opopanax** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:57 pm

Hey everyone. I got a mystery and I'm very very bummed out:(

I got a bunch of red cherries and they thrived very well in my 10G (all I have space Would LOVE a 20) tank. It was heavily planted, sandy bottom, and was a very established -well maintenanced tank.

I had no problems for many months... Then I moved cities.

I had no issues with the move (thanks for the advice on that) and it's been almost a year.

I started to noticed 4 months ago that my shrimp were disappearing. I thought it was natural attrition (since it seemd to be the older ones) but then I stopped seeing new shrimp. I'll get orange eggs, but then nothing.

I was very careful with keeping up my maintenance and everything. Now I'm down to 1 lowly red shrimp (thus the bummed part) and I'm grasping straws of what went wrong.

The only thing that I know for a fact changed was the water. I moved to Madison, Wisconsin (specicially Middleton area for any locals) and I found out there's a high level of potassium in the water (to help remove things like lead).

I started last month using a potassium sponge, but I have already lost all but that 1 Shrimp, so I have no way to guage if that's the solution (No one sells them in this area have to order online, and The apartment doesn't have an office to accept packages and heck it's -6 F this morning).

So, finally, the question: Has anyone noticed shrimp die off due strictly to Potassium? And at what levels? The water tests I have here don't test specifically for potassium.

Thoughts? Comments?

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:32 pm

What water conditioner are you using? How long do you let it work on the water before you add it to the tank?

What level of K is in your water?

Opopanax · Post by **Opopanax** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:17 pm

hey badflash, long time:)

I"ve been using TetraAqua AquaSafe. Same stuff I've used since I started:)

I don't have the latest water test for potassiums, I'll grab it from my landlords later this week. All I know is that's the only thing that has changed is the water. THe last place I lived used well water and didn't treat it with various salts to get rid of lead as heavily has Madison does.

I always fill with cold water (avoid the water softner) and let it warm up to room temperture which can take about an hour or so in winter.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:16 am

Switch to Amquel+ or Seachem Prime. These are the most effective againsts chloramine and heavy metals. I've never heard about potasium being a problem.

rugie · Post by **rugie** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:42 pm

It seems logical to assume it is a problem with the new water, Test the water from the tap, for Nh,no2, no3 & heavy metals. Also you can quize the water co as to what they are putting in the water. They are required by law to tell you. Also,----- did you recycle the tank after the move?

mwebb · Post by **mwebb** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:54 am

I have a heavily planted tank with red cherry's and Amano Shrimp. I used to fertize regularly with a potassium supplement along with a fertilizer, Tropica Master Grow, (which is mostly potassium also) and my red cherries were fine and would breed often(Strangely, I aquired my 7 Amano shrimp in 2000 and I stlill have 5 or so amano shrimp of various size, I know that it is the feeling that amanos cant breed in freshwater, but that is the only explination for the the amanos in my tank 7 years later)

Post by **Mustafa** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:03 am

mwebb wrote:I know that it is the feeling that amanos cant breed in freshwater, but that is the only explination for the the amanos in my tank 7 years later)

This is not a "feeling", this is a fact so far, backed by scientific papers and *experienced* shrimp keepers. Until someone actually proves otherwise it will remain a fact. As for your shrimp, your explanation is by far not the only explanation. I strongly urge you to search the forum about this topic. There are many, many people who make the claims you make and are "absolutely" sure that they have bred these shrimp in freshwater and it *always* turns out to be bogus. Many of these people make this claim in their very first post here, which, along with the content of their posts, shows that they have no idea what they are talking about.

If your shrimp are really 7 years old, then *by default* they are going to be different sizes. Really old females are tuly huge...I have seen very old ones at about 2 inches (or maybe even slighly over) with a very massive body whereas males stay slightly over an inch and are quite slender. I have heard others say that their amano shrimp lived to be 3, 4 or even 5 years old, so if that's true, 7 years is not a stretch either. We really have no idea about their maximum life span.

Please read the following thread for an example of someone who was even more convinced than you that his amanos bred in freshwater:

viewtopic.php?t=2402

*Nobody* has provided any proof for their claims so far, although I would absolutely love to see proof. I am also sick and tired of repeating myself like a broken record (and yet again wasting my time), so please let's not make claims that amount to pure speculation (they do not even amount to "educated guesses" in the "freshwater amano breeding" cases!!) based on absolutely nothing of substance. Hypothesizing is a valid scientific method, but speculation isn't.

So, please...let's drop this speculation unless there is some kind of proof beyond "i can't think of any other explanation" when there are really plenty explanations around.

It looks like I will be forced to add a rule that prohibits pure, uninformed, speculation in this forum....

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:01 pm

It looks like I will be forced to add a rule that prohibits pure, uninformed, speculation in this forum....

That would not be fair! Many of us need some tutoring on the difference between wild speculation and sound observation. I think specculation is important as is sharing that speculation. The important point is to communicate that it is speculation and not fact.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:48 pm

I agree with badflash that there are subjects and ideas that have not been touched upon and need to be asked to help start the process of finding a solution. But before posting we need to do research on our own first, to make sure the subject is not a repeated and unfounded one. I too am tired of the unprovened and baseless post about "Breeding Amano Shrimp in Freshwater"

TKD · Post by **TKD** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:52 pm

I concur with Neonshrimp and badflash.

TKD

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:16 pm

But there needs to be alittle research done by the Member starting a thread.
If you are really interested in the Shrimp Hobby.
There is alot of information contained in the pages of this Forum. And they should be read first before making such a claim.

Speculation is important.
But, the Amano breeding, has been addressed several times.
That is where the research comes into play along with a little common sense.

Post by **Mustafa** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:23 pm

badflash wrote: That would not be fair! Many of us need some tutoring on the difference between wild speculation and sound observation. I think specculation is important as is sharing that speculation. The important point is to communicate that it is speculation and not fact.

I think you (and some others) misunderstood me. Of course it's important (and encouraged!!) to share your observations and the hypotheses that you came up with. That is all part of the scientific process and we can discuss such observations and hypotheses here. After all, something does not become anywhere close to being "fact" if it's not an observation and/or a hypotheses first. That is *not* what I mean by "speculation" and I don't think most people would consider this speculation.

What I mean by "wild speculation" is the kind of behavior displayed above and elsewhere, where a person has *obviously* done no research to speak of, has not applied principles of logic and common sense to his/her observations and then goes ahead and pretty much out of the blue (since no research was done) claims that his wild speculation "must" be true, because he/she could not come up with anything else. Such behavior is not tolerated here. The rules already imply that this is not tolerated because they say to do research and read all the articles first before posting anything, but I just wanted to make it explicitly clear to some people who are obviously hard of understanding.

So, don't panic...everything stays the same in the end.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:58 am

Thanks for the clarification.

So, don't panic...everything stays the same in the end.

Good to hear.

Opopanax · Post by **Opopanax** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:46 pm

badflash wrote:Switch to Amquel+ or Seachem Prime. These are the most effective againsts chloramine and heavy metals. I've never heard about potasium being a problem.

Ahh the internet is a wonderful place http://www.ci.madison.wi.us/water/Docum ... _03.p1.pdf

Antimony 1.7 ppb
Arsenic .002 ppm
barium .052ppm
Chromium 2.1 ppb
Fluoride 1.3ppm
Nitrate 3.55ppm
Nickel 3.6ppb
Carbon Tetrachlorid 3.1ppb
Tetrachloroethylene 3.3ppb
Tricholorethylen .36 ppb
Total Trihalomethanes 4.03ppb
5 haloacetic acids .75ppb

Gross Alpha 14 pCi/L
Gross Beta 9pCI/L
Radium 266+228 1.6pCi/L

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:51 pm

That actually doesn't look too bad. They are testing for a lot of stuff that most places don't. Your problem may be something they don't test for. Most of the heavy metals are in the low PPB range, so I don't think that is an issue.

What might be interesting is to take a sample of your aquarium water to the lab that does the local testing and see what they come up with. Here the cost is around $20.

I remember one poor fellow who was having all sorts of problems. Finally took a sample to be tested and came up with high copper content in the aquarium, not the tap water. Turned out a few copper staples had found their way into his substrate. These were reacting with iron in the substrate. No invert could live in that tank.