Shrimp gender

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:34 am

TKD:

You may be right, though I don't know what specific shrimp it was, as it was several years ago. Identifying a shrimp from a picture (or even many fish) is hazardous at best <G>.

Thanks,

Mike

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:41 am

You won't keep algae under control with shrimp. There are two reasons for algae. Nutrients (nitrates and phosphates) and light. Increase your water changes and decrease the light and algae is minimized.

If you have high nitrates and phosphates, you won't be able to keep your shrimp healthy.

As far as for the gammarus, if you have access to a creek you can have all of these you want. Find a still part of the creek with rotting vegetation and shallow water. Scoop up a bunch of the bottom muck. You'll have lots of gammarus. They are really ugly in my opinion and really hard to get rid of once you have them.

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:20 am

Neon:

I'll try to get pictures up. I've not done that, so give me some time to figure it out.

The pond stays around 68-74 throughout the year. It is in a large atrium and is 5' deep so the temperature stays stable. It also gets only a small amount of sun each day (probably 2-3 hours at the most) which is enough to keep lilies in bloom in the Summer. That water is tap with a pH of 7.4 and moderate hardness. It has a waterfall attached.

The 150 gallon was started about 6 weeks ago, and gets bright indirect or direct sunlight for about 9-10 hours a day. The tank is set up for plants and South American fishes and will have soft, slightly acidic water. The biggest fish in there will be a ram.

Mike

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:25 am

I'll try to get pictures up. I've not done that, so give me some time to figure it out.

Take your time, I will be looking forward to seeing them. Thanks again for the specs.

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:27 am

Bad:

You are right about the causes of algae, and I don't expect the shrimp or anything else to keep up or counteract poor aquarium practices. They do help keep the tank clean, IME, and are fun to watch in any case. The tank will be heavily planted, and when running well will have little phosphate. Nitrates are added to the tank in the form of KNO3 to keep the plants healthy, but are not allowed to become excessive. The plants will compete for nutrients and algae is kept at bay, but there is always a little present.

I'll check a creek if I can find one. I live in a desert area, so the nearest creek is in the mountains. There is a river here, so I'll give that a look. I used to find gammarus in the LFS tanks. I found that they helped keep the gravel clean and ate decaying leaves and such. And some fish used them for food, which I think is beneficial.

Thanks,

Mike

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:33 am

If you want to keep shrimp, stick to plants that don't need fertilization. There are plenty of those, like java fern, java moss, horwort, anacharis, etc.

In my limitied experience with plants, only those that are actually land plants need more thanis already in the tank. Most of the exotic aquarium plants are submerged land plants.

Most people end up fighting their tank and animals instead of just providing them what they need. Make your life simple and go with things that work together naturally.

Shrimp&Snails · Post by **Shrimp&Snails** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:36 am

I don't use ferts either....just water changes, moss balls and java moss.

In one of my tanks the light isn't on very often but the couple of moss balls in there are fine, healthy and green.

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:45 am

Bad:

That makes sense if you want to keep shrimps alone, but I would like to combine them with small fishes. I understand that some fish can be harmful to some shrimp, and perhaps the cherry shrimp fall under that category. If that is the case, I won't keep the shrimp in there.

The previous tank had apistogramma sp., cardinal tetras, otocinclus, and cory cats along with the shrimp (prob. the indian shrimp instead of the Amano I thought they were), and had no apparent problems. Those fish like softer, acidic water and I kept it heavily planted. I used MH lights, CO2 injection, and daily additions of trace and other nutrients per the Colin/Sears methods. It did quite well, and the animals and plants did quite well.

There are a number of aquatic plants that are either completely aquatic or have submersed/emersed forms. Java fern/moss do better in darker tanks, and anacharis likes cooler, harder water (it's growing quite well in my pond). Plants like Vallisneria, Ludwigia, Hygrophila, and others grow quite well entirely submersed. Many plants available in the typical LFS are, indeed land plants that will stay green for a time under water, but I don't buy those. I've kept plants in aquariums for 40+ years, and have to say that they enhance an aquarium and help maintain it. The only time I've kept a tank w/o plants is when the fish would not tolerate them (Oscars and such).

I always want to house the creatures under my care in conditions that keep them healthy. I certainly don't want to put shrimp in a tank so that they will be stressed. That's why I'm here picking your brains

.

Thanks,

Mike

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:54 am

Shrimp&Snails wrote:I don't use ferts either....just water changes, moss balls and java moss.

In one of my tanks the light isn't on very often but the couple of moss balls in there are fine, healthy and green.

That's fine if you only want to house the shrimps, and I may do something just like that in the house. The varieties of shrimp I see here is very interesting.

OTOH, I like fish that do well in heavily-planted aquariums, and I like the look of that kind of aquascape. I haven't found it difficult to maintain such a tank, and would like to add shrimp to that as well. There are grass shrimps in there now (feeder shrimp, though that's not why they are in there), doing quite well, though the fish have yet to be added. Keeping a heavily-planted aquarium requires the addition of certain nutrients (similar to reef tanks that need trace elements and such), and CO2 with lots of light, but is not difficult, IME. When I had reef tanks, I always had one type of shrimp or another in them. They are neat critters.

Mike

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:17 am

Mike, I see we are not getting through to you. I see this again and again with "planted tank" people. We've all tried to communicate that your shrimp will die in your tanks and that they won't do what you think. You keep deflecting that information.

If you are still here in a few months, re-read this thread and you'll then figure out why your shrimp are dead.

Shrimp don't get along with most fish, shrimp don't get along with ferts, and shrimp won't clean up your tank.

Shrimp&Snails · Post by **Shrimp&Snails** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:29 am

MikeR wrote: There are grass shrimps in there now (feeder shrimp, though that's not why they are in there), doing quite well, though the fish have yet to be added.Mike

Are these the shrimp you have in your tank that's cycling while you're adding ammonia into it?

I have a few grass shrimp in the tank which don't seem to be having any problems, even though I'm still adding the ammonia daily, perhaps because the pH is 6.3-6.5.

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:34 am

Bad:

Please re-read my posts and perhaps you won't think that I'm so dense. I've kept shrimps successfully in heavily planted tanks with high light, CO2, and fertilizer, dwarf cichlids, tetras, and corys, and I think that the Amano books might even convince YOU that it is possible (I believe that ALL of his pictures show fish and shrimp in planted tanks and he indicates that the light and nutrients are needed to maintain such tanks). If the cherry shrimps can't do that, I won't put them in there (as I've said before). The pond I had intended to add them to is not fertilized, FWIW, but if the cherry shrimp are too delicate to put in with guppies, then I won't do that, either.

As for "plant people," perhaps I could give you a dig about "shrimp people." I have been pleasant, I think, and have humbly and with an open mind asked for information, and then get this from you. I take the information given here from people who are willing to share, and will NOT risk harm to any creature, vertebrate or not, and not "deflect it." I was, I thought, participating in a debate which I find very informative. I believe that one of my posts indicated that if I can't keep the shrimp in a fish or planted tank, I will not. I won't force a creature to tolerate a poor environment, whether a goldfish in warm water, saltwater in brackish or freshwater, nor a shrimp in a tank that has nitrates at a level harmful to them. If I'm supposed to simply take your advice and not respond or discuss my experiences, then I don't belong here.

I get it, believe it or not, that the shrimp will not clean algae as I had thought. Again, I was confused by Amano as he advocates this. I know that the shrimp with not keep the tank clean, no more than corydoras cats do, but I keep those fish anyway. FWIW, I bought some bristlenose plecos to help with algae, mainly because of what I learned here.

I think that shrimp are interesting creatures in their own right, worthy of keeping as pets. At least the grass shrimp (sold as feeder shrimp, BTW, which I don't like doing) I already have are. The large numbers of shrimp I wanted was not to keep the tank free of algae, but because the tank is so darned big. Putting 10 shrimp in a 150 gallon tank seems silly, IMO.

As for "if you are still here in a few months," this will be my next-to-last post here, so don't worry.

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:44 am

S+S:

The tank has completed its cycle. The ammonia being added now is to maintain that until the fish are added. The fish are arriving tomorrow, and I will not add ammonia after that. I am doing a "fishless cycle." I don't like adding fish slowly for cycle a tank. This just damages the first fish, usually permanently, and can risk disease as well due to stressed fish.

The acidic nature of the water is protective, of course, with regard to ammonia, so the current additions didn't worry me. I added the shrimp after the tank had finished, and I just didn't want to stare at a tank with plants only, so I bought some feeder shrimp; they are fun to watch. There is also a small tadpole in there that is growing like a weed, and a single male guppy from my pond (funny, he hasn't killed any shrimp). I've had no losses at all (10 shrimp in, 10 still here after two weeks).

Thank you very much for your information and advice; I learned a great deal. As I mentioned to "Badflash," I won't be back, but I am still grateful for your time.

Mike

Post by **Mustafa** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:10 am

Mike,

No need to leave the forum because of a discussion. We're really friendly people here and any kind of "challenges" of opinion are expressed only in the interest of learning. No ill-feelings intended. The problem with internet-based discussions is that one cannot see other other person's facial expressions. Even the smilies are a bad substitute, and some people just don't like using them. Badflash was just expressing his opinion and reflecting the experiences of many, many people who have tried to keep shrimp in high-tech, fertilized, CO2 tanks. It usually goes well for a while, even a long while, but at some point the shrimp start dying "mysteriously" although "no changes" were made. If you want it or not, fertilizer *can* build up in a tank over time, even with water changes. And if you do too many massive water changes to take care of the build-up, then you're not doing the shrimp a favor either.

Now, does that mean it's impossible to keep shrimp in such tanks? No. It's just a lot more difficult. Shrimp need close to perfect water conditions, close to perfect established biological system, as little disturbance and changes as possible and flourishing biofilm. All of these things are not given in a "high tech" planted tank. In fact the "nature aquarium" by Amano is everything else but natural (he was just referring to natural landscapes he wanted to emulate underwater, not natural aquatic systems). The larger your tank (and you seem to have a very large one), the higher the probability that your shrimp will do ok in your tank, as larger tanks tend to be more stable, even the "high tech" ones. Fish and shrimp are not the same...where fish can still survive and thrive, most shrimp fall over and die. So having kept fish in planted, high tech tanks does not mean much for shrimp keeping. And of all the shrimp species, the Amano shrimp is probably the hardiest, so keeping that shrimp alive does not necessarily indicate that you will be able to keep others alive the same way under the same conditions.

Anyway, some people just keep getting frustrated and may voice their frustration in their tone when posting. It's just that we have yet to see a single person who has had a flourishing shrimp tank for a few years (or at least over a year or so) and is dosing heavily with fertilizers and CO2. But there are more than enough people who just put shrimp in there a few weeks or days ago and now proclaim that they have absolutely no problems keeping shrimp in their high tech, heavily fertilized tanks. Bottom line is that a "high tech" planted tank is not the optimal environment for any shrimp and we as shrimp hobbyists always like to advocate optimal conditions for our shrimp. Hence maybe some of the frustration that shines through here. Keep that in mind when reading the posts here.

Again, a little discussion, even with undertones, is no reason to announce your departure from the forum. And yes, you have been humble and had an open mind, otherwise my reply would have been completely different.

Post by **Mustafa** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:18 am

MikeR wrote: from my pond (funny, he hasn't killed any shrimp). I've had no losses at all (10 shrimp in, 10 still here after two weeks).

Alright..I just read this last post. Mike, you're obviously not getting it.

This comment would have been absolutely unnecessary if you had done the research that is required by the rules. When we discuss issues with people here, we assume that they have done the research first. When badflash said something to the effect of "fish are not compatible with shrimp" he obviously assumed you had done your research. Obviously, he was wrong. Nobody says that all fish will kill shrimp, especially not guppies. Many fish will kill them (such as cichlids, gouramis etc...), but many others will simply prevent them from multiplying by feasting on their offspring. We have said these things a million times and it's in my introductory article.

So, maybe you haven't been all that humble and "open minded" after all...your tone shows. So, if you do decide to stick around (and I'm really indifferent about it after reading your above comments), consider this a first and last warning to follow the rules and do the research before posting anything.