alder cones

[southerndesert]

I did a search and couldn't find any info and my question is about alder cones used in shrimp tanks. I have read about their use at a German Forum to help boost the immune system and help ward of health problems. Is there anyone here that can add more info?

Cheers, Bill

[Neonshrimp]

Hi Bill,

Interesting topic, I know that they have been used by catfish breeders to ward off fungus in the breeding tanks. The alder cones are found in their natural habitat along the stress according to the article I read. It will be interesting to see if the applications are useful for our shrimp. If anyone has been using these for their tanks please let us know

[Guba]

help boost the immune system and help ward of health problems.

I have some elder cones, when I bought them I was told that they leach a chemical that suppresses the growth of fungus. I don' think they have anything to do with "boosting" the immune system other than keeping an injury free of fungus. And of course, a fish free of fungus is a lot easier to bring back from any injuries. So far I haven't had any need to use them, so I can't say how effective they are. But, I've been told by a very respected fellow hobbyist that they do a VERY good job of keeping fungus from among us. That's why I have a portion. The fellow hobbyist had described his personal experiences to me and I was sold. He collected them himself. I guess they grow wild in the eastern parts of the US. I don't know how shrimp would react, I'm not ready for that experiment. He used them to keep cory eggs from fungusing and got really good hatch rates.

[southerndesert]

Thank you for the reply Guba,

Also here is a link to a conversation I am having at one of the German based forums about this subject...

http://www.crustaforum.com/ptopic,1923.html#1923

Bill

[Mustafa]

It's snake oil Bill. Many people in Germany believe that it makes their water "more acidic" for shrimp like bee shrimp and such, but it's bogus. Totally unnecessary. I've experimented with it and extensively researched it and it won't do diddly in most tap water as the natural acids it releases are not strong enough to eat up even a single KH (which would affect the ph in turn). Plus, it releases a ton of brown color into the water, which makes everything look more reddish/brownish. It may help with ph if you have extremely low KH water (0 or maybe just 1KH), but so would any other acid, such as muriatic acid if you're bent on messing with water parameters. Plus...there is still the problem of the brown discoloration of the water (much worse than with peat). If you wanted to make your water more acidic with alder cones in Arizona (where you have a pretty high KH) then you would need so many cones that you won't be able to see your shrimp anymore after everything is said and done.

The "anti-fungus" properties are claimed as fungus does not do well at all in acidic water (most people don't even know this reasoning as they think it's just the tannins and humic/fulvic acids that have antifungal properties). That's the reasoning at least....however, you won't ever get acidic water (i.e. ph less than 7) until you put so many cones in your tank that your tank looks like it's been filled with coca cola instead of water. I've read a bunch of papers on humic/fulvic and tannic acids (some or all of which is what comes out of the cones), peat and their purported antifungal properties and most of the research indicates that it's the acidic environment that keeps microorganisms (such as fungus, but also bacteria and many algae) from growing. So, whichever "plant part" produces the most acid is usually also the most efficient microorganism inhibitor. You could achieve the same trick with any acid out there much more efficiently and without the discoloration as mentioned above. And at the rates you're "supposed" to put in those cones (1 tiny cone, about 1.5-2cm long) per 10 liters of water, you're not going to achieve anything whatsoever, except discolor your water slightly.

As it is the case everywhere, there are really not all that many knowledgeable breeders in Germany. There are tons of shrimp *keepers*, many of them act like they are knowledgeable and claim all kinds of things, but they are as casual as most other keepers elsewhere in the world. Trust me, I know this since I am from there. If someone claims alder cones work great for him and now his shrimp breed like crazy (even if the actual reason is not the alder cones) then others will pick that "information" up and spread it like wildfire. Before you know it tons of people will come forward to talk about the "wonders" that alder cones have done for them although their shrimp would have been just fine and breeding even without them. I'd take anything hear/read anywhere with a huge chung of salt until further qualified verification. Something similar was happening years ago when people were convinced, for no reason whatsoever besides hearsay and faith, that iodine dosing was causing their shrimp to molt and grow better and reproduce explosively. All bogus. If you ever ask people claiming all kinds of bogus why they think that way they will always point at their "success" with their shrimp, but you will never get a real cause-effect relationship explanation from them. I.e. they can never properly prove that it was, for example, the alder cones that cause whatever change they observed. Anyway, there are still lots and lots of myths in the aquarium hobby (not just the shrimp hobby) and I will try to "bust" these myths whenever I get the chance. Sometimes I even go to German forums, when I see some totally nonsense stuff being posted as "the truth" by some self-proclaimed "experts" and "gurus" there (you know who you are if you are reading along... ), and try to clarify things, but since my time is limited I try to just concentrate on my own website and forum. That's more than enough work.

Neonshrimp, Alder cones are *not* found in the vast majority of aquarium catfish habitats as most of these fish are tropical and alders don't grow there. They do grow along the Andes in South America, but only in high altitude in temperate to cold climate...not in tropical areas where the catfish come from.

[southerndesert]

Thank you Mustafa for your input on this subject and as I like to remind folks at any forum I use I am NO EXPERT but always willing to share what I learn as I learn it..... That is why I come here to ask many questions I feel I couldn't get a reliable answer to elsewhere. I have been at this about a year now and just now starting to get comfortable just in the fact that I can keep the species happy and breeding that I have. It is in my lust for knowledge while looking for more information that I come across such info and when enough different sources mention something like Alder Cones it tends to focus my attention until I get it figured out.

Their is still much to learn.....But that is the reason I am doing this. These animals fascinate me and present a challenge as well, not to mention fun

[Guba]

So, as I understand it, alder cones do the same thing as peat moss, oak and beech leaves. But, alder cones are more concentrated? I was under the illusion they had some "medicinal" chemical other than tannins and acids.

[southerndesert]

It does mention some medical benifits to humans in the literature due to certain chemicals the Alder contains,but this is in the bark I believe....

Bill

[Mustafa]

@Southerndesert

I actually admire the fact that you try to find out as much as possible and follow every clue until you have figured it out. I just wanted to remind you that a lot of practices in the aquarium hobby are perpetuated because people just copy others without really thinking about the actual usefulness of actions. Just trying to help and clarify things. That's all.

The "scientific mind" is very rare in the hobby. It's always a good idea to ask anyone claiming anything *why* they make that claim and what testing and/or scientific facts supports that claim. Someone saying "ever since I put in X (iodine, alder cones etc..etc.) my shrimp have been much healthier, stronger, more fertile, live longer, etc...etc." is just not enough as it's too subjective. People make all kinds of changes to their setups all at once but concentrate on just one change (e.g. alder cones) and credit that change with all the perceived benefits. Or, the perceived benefits are so subjective, such as "my have been molting better" or "they have had a population explosion", that they may not be really occuring or can be attributed to other factors such as increased temperatures during the summer, slight changes in the water change regimen, a *finally* completed cycle, decreased water column bacterial counts due to used up nutrients, etc...etc...etc.

Even if the bark has medicinal properties, that does not mean that the cones do. Plus, humans are so different from decapods that any medicinal properties claimed will most likely not be applicable to decapods. Making claims without testing is very widespread in the hobby and it's extremely important to discriminate between such information (which is plentiful) and actually tested, verified and thought out information (which is extremely rare, but most useful).

@Guba
I'm not sure if alder cones are any more concentrated when it comes to the acid content, but they sure release tons of brown coloration into the water for their size. There are no *proven* or tested "medicinal" properties for decapods or fish as far as I know. But, as always, if there is verifiable evidence, I'm all open to it.

[jeej]

Hey, Mustafa, we NEED people like you.

Knowledgable people that actually have the means to disprove nonsense.

Any I totally agree with your comments about something working for someone and then the 'phenomenon' spreads like wildfire.

Just like this Geo Liquid stuff. In another thread I actually said that I had no scientific proof. All I know is that since I have been using it along with my water changes, everything has gone great for me. Am I wasting my money? I just don't know.

[Mustafa]

Just like this Geo Liquid stuff. In another thread I actually said that I had no scientific proof. All I know is that since I have been using it along with my water changes, everything has gone great for me. Am I wasting my money? I just don't know.

I bet you your shrimp would still do great without that stuff.

[Neonshrimp]

The best way to better find out is to have a couple of groups. One that gets the Geo Liquid and a Control group the doesn't get it. It takes some planning and resources but if you do try it please let us know the results.

[southerndesert]

Being the curious type and having some Alder Cones available as well as a Cardinal Shrimp with some sort of fungus or parasite that we discussed in a different thread I plan to do an experiment. I have this shrimp (recent photo of one shown in another post) in a 10 gallon matured tank set up for Sulawesi Shrimp.



I have added two small Alder Cones and will watch. So far after 24 hours the shrimp still has the fungus and the water has turned a tea color. Not terribly dark , but noticeable for sure...



The shrimp seems fine and has really acted normal since I moved it into quarantine several days back.... If nothing else the updates will keep us busy

Cheers, Bill

[Neonshrimp]

If nothing else the updates will keep us busy

I will be following this one for sure, thanks Bill.

[Guba]

Good luck Bill, I will be following this also.

Joe