Popcorn of Death

[btong]

So another newbie here,
Lovely to meet all of you, long time reader first time poster, and all that.
Now, if you could be so kind as to help me understand why one of my little buddies just wigged out and died.

Everything has been going swimmingly (heh) in the last week since we got the little fellas. Lost one in a tank transfer (original tank belongs to my boss, has a built in pump system which the shrimp found their way into, leaving us with an empty looking tank and my boss without a freshwater tank to play with), but other than that all of them look good. Most are a nice shade of light red, have been getting steadily more red. Have given them a few pieces of food to stare at before I remove them.

Earlier today I did a small water change, trying to remove some suspended dust from an addition of substrate I added three days ago (all rinsed, just not well enough apparently). Then about five minutes ago I notice a shrimp popcorning around, except it's landing on its back and not moving in between jerks and jumps. It has since stopped. I poked it, it didn't move. Then it sprang up, floated back down onto its side, and began running its swimmerets. It has since stopped moving entirely.

Thoughts? All the other buddies are active, reddish, and seem...content?

Thanks for any advice or assistance you may be able to provide.

[JennyPenny]

How long has the tank been set up? And do you have a test kit? I would check ph, ammonia, and nitrite ASAP. To me, it sounds like it could be a water quality issue.

[btong]

Relatively new tank, probably hadn't been cycled long enough but "we" got impatient. All water parameters are fine, except for a slight ammonia presence (~.25ppm according to the test which runs in increments of .25ppm).

A few of the snails haven't moved in a few days and I wasn't sure whether or not to remove them for fear that they were just being...lazy, so I'm thinking that maybe one or two of them kicked it and have been leaching into the water. I haven't fed the tank in two weeks, haven't left any food in the tank, and the change in tanks led to a 40% increase in water volume. There was no temperature shock either because we have a tank heater that's keeping it at a constant 75 degrees (our office building turns off the heat over the weekends and as we are on the east coast, this leads to the office becoming absurdly cold; and during the summer the office building pumps the A/C like its 112 out, which leads to the office becoming absurdly cold).

Not sure what else to do except partial water changes every few days until the ammonia clears. I can't feed them any less and there's nothing to take out of the tank (suspicious snails are now in a separate container, I'm awaiting signs of life before returning them and there was never any visible detritus to remove).

[Mech]

your water has killed everything, the rest will be dead in a week, do a water change and find out whats rotting or going bad in your tank.

[btong]

Thank you for your abrupt response, Mech.
I'm not certain if you missed my previous post, but there's nothing in the tank that is rotting, primarily due to the fact that nothing has been added to the tank that is capable of rotting that hasn't been promptly removed.

I've done a water change, but how much do you recommend changing and at what frequency?

[Mech]

dont be offended i just like being blunt when it comes to shrimp

change 50%, make sure you use RO water from your local fish sale place and use instant ocean salt. when they popcorn around then they are being killed by ammonia, the wrong salt or poisoned by cleaning agents etc.

[Mech]

and remove the dead snails, they will produce so much ammonia and poison your water more.

[btong]

I am no longer exasperated, thank you. Intentional bluntness when helpful is appreciated. And I feel the same, I really like these guys, I want to take care of them well.

Snails are out, I've got distilled water and instant ocean, keeping the salinity constant.

How frequently should I change the water? Also, doesn't constantly changing the water consistently cut my beneficial bacteria population? How can I safely rebuild that population while doing water changes? Slowly taper off the change volume while keeping track of the ammonia levels?

[Mech]

nope, water changes wont get rid of any of your beneficial bacteria, ammonia kills your shrimp, the ammonia is made from something rotting or something dying. You can get die off from rocks, plants etc.

all you need to do is change 50% of your water today and maybe do 20% every other day until you get 0 ammonia.

[btong]

Sounds good, I'll get back to you.

I sifted through the substrate (didn't find diddly), tossed 7 snails that didn't give any indication of being alive (leaving three highly active ones), and did a ~50% water change.

Thanks for the advice!

[Varanus]

Be aware Mech's words may not be the be-all end-all, as I've heard from a number of sources over the years (including users here) that excessive water changes can be bad for aquarium water quality.

.25 is still pretty low ammonia (mine maxed out at .5 during cycling before going to 0 over a period of a few weeks) so it may simply be the tank still cycling rather than any excessive source of ammonia (technically every animal in the tank produces ammonia, its just that once a tank is cycled only a dead animal that doesn't get eaten quickly could produce enough to cause problems).

Transferring to a new habitat is also inherently stressful, and it is possible this is what led to the death of the one shrimp rather than any problem with the environment (this was the conclusion that was reached when a user a while ago asked why one of the new shrimp they got died). The fact that only one got sick makes me question ammonia being the culprit. If it were me I would leave the tank alone (i.e. no feeding) beyond testing the water (unless more shrimp develop problems) until the ammonia tests detect 0.

Regardless of what the real cause is you should keep an eye on the tank.

[Mech]

give me some credit, fresh water is better for the shrimp then ammonia. The guy hasn't changed any water and has lost shrimp. I did 50% water change every few days for over a month to reduce nitrites and i didn't loose one shrimp. Varanus doesn't understand the meaning of water conditions it seems, shrimp need clean water, not ammonia ridden water. the fact these guys can handle water salinity swing and temperature swings shows they are fine with water changes.

mine seem to be doing fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdet_-5ErqQ

[btong]

What spurred me to action today was the fact that a few hours after my original post, another shrimp did the underwater spandau ballet. I thought at that point that a significant water change was a decent response, regardless of the other factors in which such actions might result. Unfortunately now it's the weekend (first and likely last time I have that sentiment) so I'll have to wait till Monday to check on them (unless i sneak back to the office over the weekend, which is entirely possible).

Thank you for the words of caution Varanus. I'm convinced multiple snails were dead (not only to quiet the thoughts that I may have just tossed healthy animals in the bin) as nothing else in the tank was decaying and they hadn't moved in quite some time.

A few questions, entirely out of order of importance (4, 2, 3, 1):

1. Would you expect to see adverse effects from moving tanks present four or so days after the move?

2. What do you think could have led to a mass snail death before the shrimp showed any signs (from what I understand their, the snails, lifespans are shorter but they are much hardier than the shrimp when it comes to ammonia levels)?

3. What do you mean by "bad for aquarium water quality" with respect to excessive water changes? The only thing I could think of was free floating beneficial bacteria that get to play the role of the baby with respect to the bathwater. But I don't even know if this is a thing. Are all the bacterial colonies that neutralize ammonia housed within the substrate and on decorations?

4. Would you suggest that I continue with the water changes should I return to find that the ammonia has remained constant? If it decreases I plan to call it good (while obviously still remaining vigilant), and if it increases then I'll certainly perform another water change. But if it should remain the same...

'lil further note: did the ammonia test again after the water test, and NOW its at .25 ppm. Coulda sworn it was at .25 before as well, but the on the color comparison card for the test, the two shades are infuriatingly similar. Regardless, Ammonia is lower now.

Thank you all for your input, this community was invaluable in my decision to step foot into this hobby, and now that I'm in it I can tell you guys are gonna help me keep myself from tripping too terribly over something I don't see coming. Much appreciation being sent your way.

[btong]

Wow Mech, thats a lovely tank. And judging from the view out the window in back you live in a beautiful area. Thanks for sharing.
And I appreciate both of your inputs, I don't think Varanus was trying to undercut you, just curb the potential enthusiasm of a newcomer to take the first advice given and run as far and fast with it as possible (which I wasn't going to do, but am still grateful for the reminder to be conscientious of my actions). However, I agree, ammonia levels take precedence over other quality concerns.

[Varanus]

give me some credit, fresh water is better for the shrimp then ammonia. The guy hasn't changed any water and has lost shrimp. I did 50% water change every few days for over a month to reduce nitrites and i didn't loose one shrimp. Varanus doesn't understand the meaning of water conditions it seems, shrimp need clean water, not ammonia ridden water. the fact these guys can handle water salinity swing and temperature swings shows they are fine with water changes.

I'm merely repeating what other users on this very forum said. I've never changed the water in my supershrimp tank so I can't use my own experiences.

I do question though if .25 counts as "ammonia ridden" given it is the lowest amount the user's test could even detect. That said, given he mentioned another shrimp started having problems it seems a water change was prudent.

1. Would you expect to see adverse effects from moving tanks present four or so days after the move?

I've read that "trauma" (i.e. various stresses) can accumulate in shrimp over time, leading to some handling stress better than others, but whether that is the cause or not would only be speculation on my part. I do know I have a freshwater tank where shrimp I have gotten have seemed fine for several days before dying (water conditions were ideal, all the shrimp were acclimated slowly and identically and their fellow shrimp with them survived just fine, so I can only assume stress from shipping simply effected the ones that died more than others).

2. What do you think could have led to a mass snail death before the shrimp showed any signs (from what I understand their, the snails, lifespans are shorter but they are much hardier than the shrimp when it comes to ammonia levels)?

That is strange indeed. What kind of snails are they? Assuming they are the malaysian trumpet snails then they are indeed incredibly hardy and none have died in my tank as far as I am aware (no empty shells visible) despite having been there for most of the cycling process.

3. What do you mean by "bad for aquarium water quality" with respect to excessive water changes? The only thing I could think of was free floating beneficial bacteria that get to play the role of the baby with respect to the bathwater. But I don't even know if this is a thing. Are all the bacterial colonies that neutralize ammonia housed within the substrate and on decorations?

Most such bacteria are, I think the posts I saw regarding this had the idea that changing the water conditions too often could adversely effect the bacteria in the substrate as they may handle it not as well as the shrimp themselves, but I can't quite recall the specifics. It does make sense though that it would be less of a problem in a brackish water environment due to how adaptable everything in it is. So I wouldn't worry about it unless someone more knowledgeable than me says it could be a problem.

4. Would you suggest that I continue with the water changes should I return to find that the ammonia has remained constant? If it decreases I plan to call it good (while obviously still remaining vigilant), and if it increases then I'll certainly perform another water change. But if it should remain the same...

I've never done the frequency of water changes that Mech is recommending on any tank, so I don't think I'm qualified to say much more on the matter (hopefully someone else can chime in). Still your plan sounds good to me.

'lil further note: did the ammonia test again after the water test, and NOW its at .25 ppm. Coulda sworn it was at .25 before as well, but the on the color comparison card for the test, the two shades are infuriatingly similar. Regardless, Ammonia is lower now.

The colors can indeed be hard to read when it comes to the really low ammonia levels. It helps me to make sure I'm in bright light and that I view it from multiple angles to help tell.