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[badflash]

You are over thinking this. An undergravel bubbler system is as good and as cheap as it gets. Walmart is just cheap. If someone else sells it and you can get it cheaper at walmart, that is one thing. If no one else sells it but walmart, walk away.

The biggest thing is the 20% water changes every week without fail with conditioned water. Conditioned water requires Prime or Amquel+, no shortcuts or letting the water stand or bubble with air or any other urban legend. This is the single biggest thing to success. No joke. The 2nd secret is to not overfeed.

Once you succeed you'll re-read this post and say, why didn't I get this....

[Cubano]

You're right about that badflash; about walking away; I think ill just work until i save up enough for an Eclipse 6 gallon or I find a very good 10 gallon setup.

[Cubano]

hey what do you guys think of the Penguin Bio wheel filters for a 10 gallon?

[badflash]

I think they suck. If you use the filter that they come with there isn't enough flow to make the bio wheel turn. Even with just the bio wheel and no filter mine is contantly having troubles and I have to clean it. The under gravel system is the one I never have trouble with and I have lots of shrimp as a result.

[Cubano]

What is the name of the undergravel system you have? Will it just work for shrimp or will it also work for fish and plants as well?

[badflash]

I use Penn-Plax Clear-Free. They sell them at Petco. They work for anything, fish or shrimp, plants. You just need plants that do well with gravel. Fine substrate tends to reduce flow.

[Cubano]

dont you have to be very careful about the maintenace though? I know as with anything there is maintenance but with this filtration system ive heard its more susceptible to junk.

[Mustafa]

I'm not a big fan of undergravel filters and would not recommend them in the long run. They will work fine as biological filters for a while, but will present a problem sooner or later as they clog up with shrimp waste and other course organic matter (plant parts, food, etc.). This organic matter will be decomposed by bacteria which will produce ammonia. This ammonia is then (hopefully) immediately turned into nitrate (first nitrite, then nitrate), which add to the nitrate pollution of the tank. In other words, even if you don't feed your shrimp anything, your nitrates will go sky high because of the decomposing organic matter. This is the reason why the gravel covering undergravel filters needs to be vacuumed and turned and churned very often. However, vacuuming is not a good idea in a shrimp tank as smaller shimp will get sucked in. A "reverse flow kit" would alleviate the problem a little bit, but the substrate will still clog up in the long run (it will just take longer) as very fine organic matter still passes through the sponge pre-filter of such a kit. Malaysian Trumpet snails help a little, but in the end they just add to the problem as they turn larger organic waste (such as food, decaying matter etc.) into smaller organic waste (snail excrements).

In my experience fine-pored, air driven sponge filters work the best. These are excellent biological filters and also great mechanical filters as they trap organic particles in their fine pores. During regular maintenance these filters can be removed and cleaned, which actually *removes* the organic waste from the aquarium. That does *not* happen when you are using an undergravel filter unless you constantly vacuum but that's not an option in a shrimp tank as I mentioned earlier.

A canister filter with a sponge pre-filter is an excellent solution, too, although on the pricier side of things.

The most important thing (next to water changes and not overfeeding) is to clean your filter regularly to export the organic waste out of your tank and thus avoid nitrate spikes. Shrimp, especially hatchlings, are very sensitive to even comparatively low nitrate levels and the best level for them is around 0 ppm if at all possible.

[badflash]

Mustafa,
How long did you run your under gravel filter before you ran into trouble? mine has been up & running since september with no problems. I have no accumulation of stuff or clogging. Shrimp are breeding. I had big problems with foam filters getting mucked up and needing to be cleaned all the time, plus they are ugly.

[Cubano]

Thanks for the reply Mustafa, any certain brands of the Power Canister filters to consider? Would Aquaclear or Penguin Biowheel fall under this category? What about heating, and substrate? How many gph should the filter do?

[Mustafa]

Mustafa,
How long did you run your under gravel filter before you ran into trouble?

It all depends on how large your tank is and how many shrimp you have in there. With a heavy load of shrimp it can happen within a few months, but if you have just a light or medium load it will take longer. Can't really give you specific time frames as it's all dependant on your set-up.

mine has been up & running since september with no problems.

Problems don't occur right away. September is relatively recent. Also consider the fact that you have not been running it since september with a large shrimp load.

I have no accumulation of stuff or clogging.

How do you know this? It all happens *slowly* in the deeper layers of your gravel. Where do you think all that shrimp crap and uneaten food is going? It does not dissolve right away and get removed with water changes if that's what you're thinking. It accumulates in the gravel and the undergravel filter helps in the process by sucking it in deeper.

Shrimp are breeding.

Yes, that is possible. As I said, this is a problem that will make itself apparent in the long term.

I had big problems with foam filters getting mucked up and needing to be cleaned all the time,

Actually, that is not a problem at all! That is good! They are supposed to get mucked up and cleaned all the time so you can remove all that crap out of the tank. Remember, shrimp are sensitive to nitrate and other dissolved organic matter. All that crap lying around in the tank dissolves slowly over time producing ammonia and other dissolved organic matter. You really don't want that. The great thing about the shrimp-sponge filter combination is that shrimp are great at turning all that solid organic waste into tiny particles (but not dissolved) that float up into the water column and consequently get trapped by the sponge filter. When the filter is cleaned all that gunk is removed. Works great. But for the shrimp to reach it it needs to stay out there and not disappear into the gravel. That's why it is so advantageous to use sand as a substrate as all the excrements and other organic waste stays on the surface. When I do use gravel I make sure that there is no deep layer of gravel. My gravel just barely covers the bottom of the tank and you can still see some of the tank bottom. This way there are no nooks and cranies where solid organic waste can accumulate and the shrimp still have access to it.

Having said that...if your sponge filter turns mucky very quickly then that means that you are either overfeeding or your shrimp load is too high for the tank or both. That's the price you pay for having that many shrimp in a tank...the filter needs to be cleaned more often.

plus they are ugly.

Hey, I'll take "ugly filter" over "long term problems resulting in dead or non-breeding shrimp" anyday. Plus, it's all a matter of personal taste. To me they don't look all that ugly...but then, I am also more of a function-oriented type of guy when it comes to these things.

[Mustafa]

Thanks for the reply Mustafa, any certain brands of the Power Canister filters to consider? Would Aquaclear or Penguin Biowheel fall under this category? What about heating, and substrate? How many gph should the filter do?

Filters or filter brands are all a matter of taste. gph and all does not matter. As long as you make sure that whatever canister or power filters you use have a sponge on the intake to prevent shrimp from getting sucked in, it will all work. I personally use the classic version of the eheim canister filter on my 55 gallon tank.