Neocaridina denticulata Sinensis (Red) Lets see Yours

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:00 pm

YuccaPatrol
Mine are the same.
The clear parts have a red tint.
Then they have Red , lines/stripes/markings, what ever you want to call it.

They are not, just , the pale/clear color.

Do you know, how much the male, effects the color of the offspring ?

John

Post by **Mustafa** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:58 pm

My males have red on them, too. It's interesting, because my males are less red the bigger they get, quite in contrast to the females.

YuccaPatrol · Post by **YuccaPatrol** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:45 am

Mustafa,

I have noticed that too: juvenile males have more color than the largest ones in my tank.

Although I don't know the specific genetics for the red color trait, it is most likely a simple recessive trait. If it were a more complex trait (sex linked, etc), we wouldn't get 100% red offspring every time.

So, assuming this is the case, both the male and the female contribute equally to the coloration of the offspring (even though the male doesn't strongly express the red coloration)

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:29 am

YuccaPatrol wrote:Although I don't know the specific genetics for the red color trait, it is most likely a simple recessive trait. If it were a more complex trait (sex linked, etc), we wouldn't get 100% red offspring every time.

So, assuming this is the case, both the male and the female contribute equally to the coloration of the offspring (even though the male doesn't strongly express the red coloration)

In my experience the genetics for color in this species seems to be more complex than just simply mendelian. The red trait in bee shrimp/crystal red shrimp is an example of a simple recessive trait. The first generation offspring of a bee shrimp mated with a crystal red shrimp all look like bee shrimp.

When I crossed a red cherry shrimp with *verifiable* wild Neocaridina denticulata sinensis, the first generation offspring did not look anything like either parent. Granted, there were none that were red in the first generation, but the shrimp most definitely looked like mixes and *not* like the wild type. The females were greenish, with yellowish saddles and eggs, instead of brownish with brown saddles and eggs like the wild type. So, although the red might actually be a simple recessive trait dependant on a single gene, other color-genes seem to play a part in the coloration of N. denticulata sinensis. This does not surprise me, as the wild-type is very variable in coloration.

I stressed *verifiable* wild N. denticulata sinensis above, since there are many other Neocaridina sp. that the red cherry shrimp can hybridize with, but the results of such crossings are not helpful for our purposes. Such crosses produce all kinds of colorations in the first generation, including red ones.

And yes, I also think that the males genetically contribute to the red coloration. In a real sex-linked trait where the trait was carried only by the females you would not see any red on the male if I remember my genetics correctly.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:02 am

I'll say it is complex. I have one tank I'm doing my "super reds" in. Even the males are nice & red, redder in fact than the females I once had. 2 days ago I found a brown shrimp in the tank. I quickly removed her, but what the heck?

She's now in my moungrel tank when my new experiments come from.

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:11 am

badflash wrote:I'll say it is complex. I have one tank I'm doing my "super reds" in. Even the males are nice & red, redder in fact than the females I once had. 2 days ago I found a brown shrimp in the tank. I quickly removed her, but what the heck?

She's now in my moungrel tank when my new experiments come from.

Interesting...are you sure that the brown shrimp did not hitchhike (as a tiny baby) somehow from your other tank? This can happen somtimes if you are using the same net for both tanks, transferring plants/equipment/decoration from one tank to another, or even using the same hose to change the water. They are so tiny that they are not noticably unless you are really watching...and even then some might still make the trip.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:49 pm

Mustafa wrote:Interesting...are you sure that the brown shrimp did not hitchhike (as a tiny baby) somehow from your other tank?

The tank in question is kept 2 floors up from the one with any browns at all. Nothing has moved from the basement to here. I have to believe that this is a "throw back". I'm also the only one in the house that works with fish, so no one was "helping".

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:32 pm

Everyone
Thank You for the information. That is very interesting.

I have also noticed , that the older the males get, the less the red shows up.
I thought I finialy had, niced colored males.
And then they grew up.

John

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:34 pm

badflash

If you are going to tell us, about your Super Red Males.

Atleast you could , is show us a picture.

John

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:37 pm

Here are a few more photos.
These are from my 30gal Breeder.
Most of these are not as red as the ones I have in my 125gal.

I Think this is one of my males

John

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:17 pm

Newjohn wrote:badflash

If you are going to tell us, about your Super Red Males.
Atleast you could , is show us a picture.

John

All in good time. I still work full time + so can't be spending all of my time taking pictures. I'll enjoy yours for the time being.

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:21 pm

Ok, here is a very bad picture of one of my superred shrimp that I took a few days ago:

Look at those red legs! Normal red cherries don't have such intensely red legs.

And here is the shrimp that established the name super-red (or superred/super red):

This is the first shrimp ever to be called "super-red."

I just did not know how else to describe such intense coloration. It's the "mother" of super-reds so to speak. From here the term spread all over the place. I've even seen people in Germany and elsewhere internationally refer to such shrimp as "super-red" now.

Again, look at that intense coloration and those awesome deep red legs! I've seen these deep red legs on extremely high-grade, highly selectively bred crystal red shrimp, too....you know...the kind that are sold for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars in Japan.

YuccaPatrol · Post by **YuccaPatrol** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:02 am

Those super reds are. . . .well . . . . just SUPER!

Wow!

Here is an example of the darkest red females that I have. Forgive me for the dirty glass, as I quickly snapped these shots this morning to post in this thread.

These photos show the same individual from the side and top.

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:31 am

badflash

I was not trying to insult you.
I do not think you sit around all day with nothing to do.

I just thought that if other members, or visitor. Could see some fine examples of nice RCS.
It could peak there interest in the Shrimp Hobby.

The fine examples of Super Reds, and very Red RCS, that Mustafa and Yuccapatrol showed.
Are a very nice examples of what you can achieve with a little hard work and selective breeding.

John

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:04 am

Newjohn wrote:badflash

I was not trying to insult you.
I do not think you sit around all day with nothing to do.

I just thought that if other members, or visitor. Could see some fine examples of nice RCS.
It could peak there interest in the Shrimp Hobby.

The fine examples of Super Reds, and very Red RCS, that Mustafa and Yuccapatrol showed.
Are a very nice examples of what you can achieve with a little hard work and selective breeding.

John

I didn't mean to sound insulted. I wasn't. I just don't have a lot of time right now.