Hi,
I think I've read that the Neocardinia varieties will interbreed.
Specifically, I have some Neocardinia cf. zhangiiajiensis (the "regular" blue ones, not the white). They have a slightly different appearance than the Neocardinia denticulata sinensis (the wild type of the red cherries), so I'm quite sure these are the zhang... ones.
I also have red cherry shrimp (Neocardinia denticulata sinsensis var. red) and the population is large enough that I was thinking to cull out a few that have attained maturity but never colored up well.
So......should I put the drab N. denticulata sinensis ones in with the N. zhang types?
Are the blue 'zhang' types a wild form, or are they a cultivated variety like the red cherries? What might be the outcome? Would the wild type 'zhang' genes override the genes of the cherries? I'm thinking that often a desired trait (like the red coloration) is the recessive one, or at least not a dominant trait, but because of selective breeding, it becomes prominant within a population. So that trait would more easily get "lost". So.... if I put the drab cherries in with the 'zhang' blues, would they all revert to a wild type?
I'm just curious on what folks' thoughts or experience are.
Thanks!
-Jane
Neocardinia varieties - will they interbreed?
Moderator: Mustafa
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Jane of Upton
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In my experience so far has shown that all Neocaridina species I have kept were capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. This just shows how closely related they are.
By the way...the wild N. cf. zhangjiajiensis are not blue, just like the wild N. denticulata sinensis are not blue. The N. cf. zhangjiajiensis is a very dark grey to almost black in most cases, depending on the background.
If you can't trace the origin of your N. cf zhangjiajiensis to Germany somehow, then you probably do not have that species to begin with. Many wild type Neocaridina species look very similar to each other after all.
As to the outcome of a cross...they look different from both parents and their coloration is pretty variable. It's hard to describe.
Your "drab" Red Cherries are most likely not genetically so. I've had "drab" cherries that showed almost no coloration for months suddenly color up and become a really dark red.
By the way...the wild N. cf. zhangjiajiensis are not blue, just like the wild N. denticulata sinensis are not blue. The N. cf. zhangjiajiensis is a very dark grey to almost black in most cases, depending on the background.
If you can't trace the origin of your N. cf zhangjiajiensis to Germany somehow, then you probably do not have that species to begin with. Many wild type Neocaridina species look very similar to each other after all.
As to the outcome of a cross...they look different from both parents and their coloration is pretty variable. It's hard to describe.
Your "drab" Red Cherries are most likely not genetically so. I've had "drab" cherries that showed almost no coloration for months suddenly color up and become a really dark red.
Last edited by Mustafa on Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jane of Upton
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Thanks, Mustafa!
These "blues" are very blue - not the mottled grey/brown "I think I see blue" of the wild type of the red cherry shrimp. Now I'm thinking I should keep them separate rather than risk losing the intense blue color.
The "drab" cherries are odd - the majority from the same group of juveniles (2 batches from 2 sources put into a 10 gal tank) has colored up - the females (with eggs) are getting that nice solid red color, and the males have definite red mottled pigment. But two are completely beige/clear - they're all together, eating the same diet, in the same conditions. The two are the same size as the others, and I've watched to make sure they're eating, one has an egg saddle (beige not yellow!) but neither even has so much as a fleck of red pigment. Perhaps I should put them into a community tank rather than in with the blues.
Well, I guess the blues are a Neocardinia unknown then, as they did not (to my knowledge) come from Germany. Great blue shrimp, nonetheless.
Thanks for the response!
-Jane
These "blues" are very blue - not the mottled grey/brown "I think I see blue" of the wild type of the red cherry shrimp. Now I'm thinking I should keep them separate rather than risk losing the intense blue color.
The "drab" cherries are odd - the majority from the same group of juveniles (2 batches from 2 sources put into a 10 gal tank) has colored up - the females (with eggs) are getting that nice solid red color, and the males have definite red mottled pigment. But two are completely beige/clear - they're all together, eating the same diet, in the same conditions. The two are the same size as the others, and I've watched to make sure they're eating, one has an egg saddle (beige not yellow!) but neither even has so much as a fleck of red pigment. Perhaps I should put them into a community tank rather than in with the blues.
Well, I guess the blues are a Neocardinia unknown then, as they did not (to my knowledge) come from Germany. Great blue shrimp, nonetheless.
Thanks for the response!
-Jane
You're welcome! 
Hmmm...interesting. Then you might have some of these shrimp:
http://www.petshrimp.com/files/darkblueshrimp.jpg
The picture is very bad but it gives you an approximate idea. I had these shrimp and they were dark blue to almost black. I only had females and when I crossed those with a male Red Cherry the offspring were not blue at all. Others also report that the normal (not crossed) offspring of these shrimp are not blue. Have you been breeding these shrimp? Are the offspring also blue? Do you have any pictures by any chance?
Sometimes there are also some shrimp sold as "blue shrimp" that are blue in the dealers' tanks but lose that coloration once you bring them home. They basically become see through.
The shrimp in the picture above were not like that, they remained blue for as long as they were alive.
Hmmm...interesting. Then you might have some of these shrimp:
http://www.petshrimp.com/files/darkblueshrimp.jpg
The picture is very bad but it gives you an approximate idea. I had these shrimp and they were dark blue to almost black. I only had females and when I crossed those with a male Red Cherry the offspring were not blue at all. Others also report that the normal (not crossed) offspring of these shrimp are not blue. Have you been breeding these shrimp? Are the offspring also blue? Do you have any pictures by any chance?
Sometimes there are also some shrimp sold as "blue shrimp" that are blue in the dealers' tanks but lose that coloration once you bring them home. They basically become see through.
The shrimp in the picture above were not like that, they remained blue for as long as they were alive.
Forgot to mention...if your colorless Red Cherries do not have yellow or yellowish eggs in their ovaries, then they might be mixes between the Red Cherries and other non-red Neocaridina species (including their own wild form). Depending on the source some people have wild type Neocaridina mixed into their populations without realizing it, thinking that it's a completely different species of shrimp.
Just a thought....
Just a thought....
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Jane of Upton
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Jane of Upton
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Actually,
the picture on the German site (you've reference elsewhere) has a picture that is just what mine looks like...... with the exception of the light eyes. Mine have dark/black eyes. Since the one in the pict does not have those "golden" glowing eyes, could the lightness be a photographic artifact?
http://www.wirbellose.de/arten.cgi?acti ... &artNo=311
Mine are just as blue, even in different light conditions. They were a tad darker when younger, but this seems to be the "mature" color.
-Jane
the picture on the German site (you've reference elsewhere) has a picture that is just what mine looks like...... with the exception of the light eyes. Mine have dark/black eyes. Since the one in the pict does not have those "golden" glowing eyes, could the lightness be a photographic artifact?
http://www.wirbellose.de/arten.cgi?acti ... &artNo=311
Mine are just as blue, even in different light conditions. They were a tad darker when younger, but this seems to be the "mature" color.
-Jane
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Jane of Upton
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Oh, now my turn with the "forgot to mention".....
Yes, that's why I mentioned the saddle color of the "colorless" red cherries is beige - I think this is a tipoff that they may be of mixed lineage. I'm going to put them into the community tank.
As to the blues, no, they have not had offspring yet, although the largest has a nice saddle now. I think the same individual had a small batch of eggs a few weeks ago, but they dropped off within a day or two. I suspect that there may not have been a mature male yet, so they were infertile. I'm pretty sure I have mature males now, so I hope this next batch will yield offspring.
I'll keep an eye on whether the offspring are blue or not..... this'll be interesting.
-Jane
Yes, that's why I mentioned the saddle color of the "colorless" red cherries is beige - I think this is a tipoff that they may be of mixed lineage. I'm going to put them into the community tank.
As to the blues, no, they have not had offspring yet, although the largest has a nice saddle now. I think the same individual had a small batch of eggs a few weeks ago, but they dropped off within a day or two. I suspect that there may not have been a mature male yet, so they were infertile. I'm pretty sure I have mature males now, so I hope this next batch will yield offspring.
I'll keep an eye on whether the offspring are blue or not..... this'll be interesting.
-Jane
I loved the natural colored cherries. I got a single brown female in the order I received last year.
Now I have may different colored cherries, my favorite are the ones that are so dark brown they look almost black. I also have one that is a nice orange color.
There must be some natural selection going on in my tank, seems like the fish eat the red ones more than the naturals.
Now I have may different colored cherries, my favorite are the ones that are so dark brown they look almost black. I also have one that is a nice orange color.
There must be some natural selection going on in my tank, seems like the fish eat the red ones more than the naturals.