Amano shrimp problems (among other things)

roz · Post by **roz** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:42 am

Hi there everyone, I'm new here. So glad to find a forum that has discussions on these little critters, it seems to be rare, nice to finally find some other people who share enthusiasm for shrimp, it's not common over here in the UK (at least not in my area). I'm posting because I've had a bit of a tragedy recently and I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me prevent further problems.

My tank has been going for around 6 months now. It's a fully planted 28-gallon tank with dwarf rainbowfish, harlequin rasboras, baby zebra loaches and until recently some dwarf gourami and 10 amano shrimp. The ph is 8 (always high) ammonia and nitrite are at 0 and my nitrate is always less than 10. I do twice weekly water changes with conditioned tap water. The problem's I'm experiencing have been a developing saga so I will try to tell the whole story so the picture is complete.

The first sign of anything wrong was one of my amanos did not grow. All the shrimp were quite small when first put in the tank but they rapidly got bigger except for one. About 3 months ago, I spotted it darting around the tank, swimming really quickly and erratically and bumping into things. I separated it from the main tank but over the following days it's condition deteriorated to the point where it was just lying on the bottom of the tank, upside down, only occasionally moving a leg. I felt I had no choice but to euthanize.

The next thing to happen was a few weeks later one of my female gouramis got sick and died, followed quickly by the second female. There were no external signs of illness but they both had what can only be described as white stringy poo followed by a loss of appetite and listlessness. Having taken advice from my lfs at the time it was suspected that they fell foul of some kind of internal bacterial infection but all the other fish seemed fine so I was prepared to put it down to experience.

A couple of weeks later one of my rasboras "disappeared". I say disappeared because it was never found so has been presumed dead; in such a heavily planted tank, it is difficult to see much but an extensive search revealed nothing.

The latest fish death was my male gourami last week, I had been thinking he had been lucky to survive whatever had killed his lady friends but it was not to be. He exhibited the same signs as the others but also got some kind of fungal problem, probably cotton mouth. I was advised by my lfs to treat the tank to prevent the fungal infection spreading to the other inhabitants so started dosing with Protozin. The lfs said to be conservative with the dosing to avoid upsetting the filter bacteria and the loaches so I used only half of the recommended dose. Everything was fine for a few days until this weekend 2 of the shrimp started darting around the tank in the same way the small one had months earlier. As before, they were swimming very fast like they were on something, crashing into things and appearing distressed. Unfortunately, they didn't make it through to the morning.

I'm sorry to report that I haven't seen a single shrimp for over 24 hours now. I had a good look in the tank this morning and found 3 dead ones; the bizarre thing is that they look like they have been cooked, they're all pink! In addition, the one's I have pulled out smell really foul and I'm concerned that my tank water smells a bit off. I'm going to have to pull it apart to find the others, I don't think there are any survivors and I'm worried about water quality.

Does anyone have any idea what could have caused this? I know many may think the medication had something to do with it but my lfs assured me that at such low doses it should have been safe for the shrimp. I had stopped medicating the tank and started doing regular small water changes and my other fish were not exhibiting any signs of stress.

I'm genuinely upset that I might have done something awful in adding the meds, maybe my lfs were misinformed and something in it cooked my shrimp? They were the first inhabitants to my tank and I'm upset to have lost them all. Any diagnosis or suggestions would be gratefully received.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:08 am

Most folks with heavily planted tanks think they need to heavily fertilize too. What sort of subtrate and what sort of ferts are you using? How much of a water change are you doing? Are you buffering? Sounds like you have a cumulative problem caused by too many chemicals, but this is just a guess based on seeing this sort of problem over & over.

Have you tested the tap water to see what is in it?

Ecir · Post by **Ecir** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:30 am

First off, Hi Roz and welcome to the forum.

Second, I did some searching on the net and couldn't find any information about Protozin, just rumours and hearsay.... So I sent the company an email to see if they'll send any answers(I was curious), I'll post the reply when it comes but I'm sure if you follow the advice of our resident Know it Alls things should get better

Ecir

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:30 am

I'm curious to see what information Eric finds on Protozin. So the fish are not effected but the shrimp were.

Mordaki · Post by **Mordaki** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:13 am

dont know what brand you used cant remember but i got

(quote) "PROTOZIN is used for the control of all protozoan and fungal infections e.g Whitespot, Fungus, Neon Tetra Disease, Velvet, Costiasis and Trichodiniasis"
"Do not use when rays or momyrids are present.
Suitable for tropical freshwater and coldwater aquaria."

(quote)"directions on the bottle states 1 drop per gallon used on days 1,2,3 and 6, but if undergravel filtration not in use reduced dose to 1 drop per 2 gallons and only dose on days 1, 3 and 5. I've heard of half dosing when using with scaleless fish"

(quote)"Not really sure about snails, but a couple of months ago I emailed Waterlife direct asking which of their products were safe to use with shrimp. Their reply is posted below:

===========================================
Myxazin,Paragon and Octozin are safe to use in the tank with the shrimp. Protozin contains copper and as such can kill some shrimp.
regards,
WATERLIFE.
==========================================="

i dunno if that is any help they are all from different websites i just googled "PROTOZIN" and "PROTOZIN killing shrimp". Tryed to look for ingredients but couldnt find anything.

*edit*

found this may be usefull

Aquarium Doctor: WSP by Tap (UK)

Formaldehyde = The chemical compound formaldehyde (also known as methanal), is a gas with a pungent smell. It is the simplest aldehyde. Its chemical formula is H2CO (2 hydrogen,carbon and oxygen).can undergo electrophilic addition reactions with alkenes. In the presence of basic catalysts, formaldehyde undergoes a Cannizaro reaction to produce formic acid and methanol.

Malachite Green = Malachite green is a toxic chemical primarily designed to be a dye and is subsequently used to treat parasites, fungal infections, and bacterial infections in fish and fish eggs.The study of the toxicity of malachite green in fish has been hard as it is heavily influenced by the hardness, pH, temperature and amount of dissolved oxygen in water. Detailed studies have indicated that the toxicity of the chemical increases as the temperature or pH increases. The effects of malachite green on fish eggs have also been tested and it has been shown that a two fold increase in the concentration of malachite green could lead up to 20 times the mortality rate in rainbow trout eggs! This shows that it may be extremely toxic for some species of fish and especially for fish eggs. Other effects such as carcinogenesis, mutagenesis, and reduced fertility have been reported to occur in rainbow trout. Overall, although malachite green is an extremely effective weapon against fungus and parasitic infections in fish, the chemical causes serious side effects in the fish as well.

Methylene Blue = Methylene blue is an heterocyclic aromatic chemical compound with molecular formula: C16H18ClN3s. It has many uses in a range of different fields, such as biology or chemistry. Methylene blue is used in aquaculture, particularly by tropical fish hobbyists, as a treatment for fish infected by the parasitic protozoa Ichthyophthirius multifilius (ich).

Para Rosaniline = couldnt find anything usefull about this one.

Sodium chloride = also known as common salt, table salt, or halite, is a chemical compound with the formula NaCl. Sodium chloride is the salt most responsible for the salinity of the ocean and of the extracellular fluid of many multicellular organisms. As the main ingredient in edible salt, it is commonly used as a condiment and food preservative.
Many microorganisms cannot live in an overly salty environment: water is drawn out of their cells by osmosis.

(quote)"used for Protozoal infections and Flukes in Freshwater & Marine fish. Note Harmful to mormynids use half dose if marine inverts present"

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:10 pm

It looks like it was the copper. Was copper printed on the lable or box?

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:38 pm

This is yet another reason to keep fish & shrimp in different tanks. Nearly anything you give to treat fish for anything will kill your shrimp.

fishgeek · Post by **fishgeek** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:46 am

aqualife are very protective of there ingredients
i have a few good medical books, the author's have listed all products by certain companies and what they use in their products

aqualife products are not listed because they wont disclose their products contents
if they state they are shrimp unfriendly then that is enough

andrew

Ecir · Post by **Ecir** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:00 am

Thanks for the info Fishgeek and Mordaki, it's been 24 hours and no answer to the email I sent yet, maybe they all went home for the weekend

Ecir

Mordaki · Post by **Mordaki** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:38 am

np

i stumbled on a site thta had info on the ingrediants in the treatments but it diddnt say brands just what the medication was and used for, then i just loocked at the ingredients and copy abd paseted it all really. wont put the link for the place i found the info on the ingrediants as i forgot one site and dont want to get wrong for posting the link to the other one unless its just links to sites that sell stuff that arent allowed and ones with info on are allowed

"Links to commercial websites are not allowed. If you need to post information from a commercial website, you can always cut and paste or describe the information in your own words." that is just sites that sell stuff rite?

roz · Post by **roz** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:15 am

thanks again everyone for all the tips. the box and leaflet with the meds said nothing, i relied on the advice of my lfs - they sold me the shrimp so i stupidly believed they would know the score.

i guess it's just something i have to put down to experience but any extra info anyone comes up with would be appreciated

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:44 am

Very few LFS know much about keeping animals. If they keep stock longer than a few days it dies, so they mostly have no experience, especially with shrimp. This is a really new hobby, so there aren't many people that really know.

roz · Post by **roz** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:36 am

i'm sorry to dissappoint those with the leading theory but my water quality has consistently been fine throughout this whole episode - ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate less than 10 - all very normal. that leaves only the meds as cause. i'll await the research reports mentioned above, thanks

Mordaki · Post by **Mordaki** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:17 am

if the meds contained copper then the teasts wouldnt show it as copper is an element not a compound unlessthe copper bonded with some other chemical/element causing Copper Nitride (Cu3N) Copper nitrate Cu(NO3)2 ect.

Ecir · Post by **Ecir** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:04 am

Finally got my reply about the Meds, I suppose it's old news now but here it is anyways.

Dear Richard,

Protozin does contain copper and is not safe for use in the tank that contains your shrimp. If your fish are suffering from a protozoan infection such as white spot then we would recommend Octozin as this is safe with fish. If it is a bacterial infection then use Myxazin.

Regards,

WATERLIFE.

On a side note though, they never say that the other products are safe with shrimp either but with fish.... the moral of the story is seperate tanks I suppose. All hail the power of the medi-tank.

Ecir