Ramshorns snails?

[Terran]

I think I have a mutation.

I used one of my red Ramshorns snails to seed another tank some time ago....

But now it appears that somewhere along the ways a mutation happened in the population....

About half of the snails in the tank are red ....red translucent shells and red flesh..... The other half are dark brown..... Brown flesh....and brown opaque shells....


Ive seperated one of the brown ones to see what kind of offspring it creates....


Is there any other explanation for this pigment change other than mutation....?
Could there be enviromental factors and they are just taking on a different appearance?
If the red is selectively propagated (I know little about snails) Is this a mutation back to the wild type genes?

[YuccaPatrol]

I don't know the specifics of the genetics on this one, but this is typical of something called "the founder's effect".

When a new isolated population is started from a very small gene pool, gene frequency can change significantly from the original large population. Genes which were not prevalent in the original population may become much more prevalent in the new population.

Your one snail had genes for both red and brown coloration. Supposing that brown coloration is a single recessive gene, simple Mendelian genetics would make it such that the second generation produced brown snails (3 red: 1 brown)

The 50/50 ratio you observe does not match this very simple explanation, but it does give you a good idea of what is happening in that tank. A sex-linked gene or other more complex genetic mechanism could also possibly sway the numbers toward 50:50

[Terran]

yes I am famliar with "the founder effect" and simple Mendelian genetics.

As its related towards the 50/50 situation its not like I counted them it just seems as if about half are brown now and the other half red....but I wouldnt think a sexlinked situation would be applicable to ramshorns since they are all hermaphrodites...

If simple Mendelian genetics apply...and the brown is a recessive trait....

Maybe they appear about 50/50 because some of the brown ones reproduced assexually while others mated disorting the expected results....


Do you know if brown is the wild phenotype?
Is there a way to rule out whether this is a mutation?

[badflash]

The red were oriiginally bred from the brown. I have a tank of pure reds and every now and then a brown will show up, so I don't think this is new. I also get red feet with dark shells now and then.

You'll get the best color if you keep the red rams in slightly acidic water. Thin shells let the color of the foot show through. If you keep them in hard water the shells get thick and whitish.

[Mustafa]

Maybe they appear about 50/50 because some of the brown ones reproduced assexually while others mated disorting the expected results....

Ramshorns cannot reproduce asexually. They are not like MTS. You need two animals to found a population. Yes, they are hermaphrodites, but they still need to mate. If you ever put a very small baby ramshorn in a tank without ramshorns, it will be the only ramshorn in the tank. It will grow up and eventually die without ever reproducing.

Your one "founder" ramshorn snail *must* have mated before you put it into a separate tank. Alternatively, there might have already been a ramshorn in the new tank that you did not notice (snails can unnoticably get transferred from tank to tank very easily).

Just wanted to clarify.

[Terran]

Thanks for correcting me...I was always under the assumption that Ramshorns could fertlize their own eggs when they could not find a mate....

Thanks for correcting me....I feel like a doofus now

[badflash]

You should smile when you learn something new, especially when you feel foolish. It helps cover up the red face

No one knows everything, which is why places like this are so great. Believe me, I get correct all the time, so don't feel bad!

[Neonshrimp]

I learned alot of new things (hence smiles) from this thread about ramshorns snails.

[badflash]

Here is something new too:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUST 1 RAMSHORN SNAIL!!!!

[Neonshrimp]

No one knows everything, which is why places like this are so great. Believe me, I get correct all the time, so don't feel bad!

So True! Edit done to post, thanks

[zwergkrebszuechter]

red is a recessive trait, yes.
Ramshorn snails can also store sperm for a long time. You can learn that if you breed different color types of them. While red, blue, pink, green etc usually breedes true, you will get other colors for quite a while if your snail had contact to snails of other colors.

[Neonshrimp]

Thank you for that information. Do you know which colors are recessive to which or is the brown just the wild type/dominant? Anyway your information was helpful.

[Mustafa]

Thanks for correcting me...I was always under the assumption that Ramshorns could fertlize their own eggs when they could not find a mate....

Thanks for correcting me....I feel like a doofus now

No reason to feel like a "doofus." We are all here to share information and learn from each other. Being corrected is part of the learning process. It's the people that get defensive when corrected that are not doing themselves a favor. Such people will get defensive first and tell the "corrector" that he/she is "rude" and then stop posting altogether after they get corrected a few more times. Such people hurt the hobby. People like you help it. So, no worries. It's all good.

[Terran]

Hehehe… I did not think I was going to respond anymore in this thread but some of the details surrounding this issue has continued to bug me….so Im trying to wrap my mind around it….

Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about ramshorns snail genetics.

No reason to feel like a "doofus." We are all here to share information and learn from each other. Being corrected is part of the learning process.

Yea I know....but I still feel like a doofus because its something that I could have easily checked on before I posted

red is a recessive trait, yes.
While red, blue, pink, green etc usually breeds true, you will get other colors for quite a while if your snail had contact to snails of other colors.

Are you sure about this?….Could ramshorns pigment be polygenic in nature? Or some other inheritance mode?

When you say the red is recessive are you saying that snail pigment follows simple inheritance principals? Or did you say that knowing that snail pigment genetics is more complicated and involves other inheritance principals but due to certain factors can for most practical purposes be considered simple?

I have about a dozen "tanks" with red ramshorns....I say "about a dozen tanks" because some are large fish bowls or mini indoor ponds...All of them are filled with red ramshorns. "Long ago" when I only had one 20 gallon fish tank I bought a couple red ramshorns. As these snails multiplied I got more tanks and things. With any new "tank" I set up, I populated it with offspring ramshorns from that original 20 gallon tank.

I know that it is very easy for hitchhiker snails or eggs to get into tanks when things are added like plants, rocks, foreign water....or whatever.

But.....The tank that these brown ramshorns sprang up in has had no "outside" influences. The plants in the tank came from cuttings that came from that original 20 gallon tank. Same goes for the guppies and crayfish that are in the tank, all from that original 20 gallon. Water changes done with treated tap water. So in the tank that the brown ramshorns appeared I can say with a great deal of certainty that they have had no contact with snails other than the red ones from that 20 gal. That means this would not be a case of stored sperm unless a snail can store both red and brown snail sperm then use the red sperm and give the brown sperm to the offspring as a going away present for future use.


So I would think that if simple inheritance is involved and the red is recessive I would have seen brown ramshorns in at least some of my other tanks...and the tanks that the brown ramshorns are in would slowly become dominated by almost entirely brown ramshorns....
So if the red is the direct manifestation of a of a single recessive gene that codes for red that would mean that I had a mutation in that locus and this mutation is either identical to the wild type brown gene or is visually indistinguishable from the wild brown.
(I pretty sure this would only be applicable if the pigment of ramshorns is determined by a single loci)
People say that they have ramshorns with shells of one color and flesh of another color. If simple and recessive how would one get red snail flesh and brown shell?...This made me think that pigment for these snails is more complicated, unless the ramshorns have two loci for color that are not closely linked (or other factors are involved). So that when a brown and a red mate the offspring get one set for the shell and one set for the fleshy part and crossover occurred causing the offspring to get a recessive red gene pair for flesh and a dominant brown trait in the shell….


*grumbles* I better stop talking now because not only is my inheritance knowledge limited but its also very rusty. hahaheheh erm…


Okay so these are the scenarios I can generate to explain the brown so far.

Simple Inheritance: The brown is a mutation that is either identical to the wild type ramshorns or indistinguishable from it.

The overall pigment is some sort of polygenic effect and the small population that started that tank carried more of certain sets of genes related to pigment resulting in this distribution of red and brown.

Some sort of interaction between modifying and regulator genes.

Maybe the brown snails are appearing in that one tank because of the incomplete penetrance of this particular brown trait in my red ramshorns snail population (this brown trait being different from the normal one seen in the wild). Just a random idea…..probally unlikely or maybe impossible...I dunno

Any other possibilities Im missing?



So how badly did I screw up….? Did I totally mess up the principals of inheritance?….. Please correct me where needed.

[badflash]

Are your snails brown footed, or do they just look brown through the shell?