Rainbowfish wrote:Mustafa, how about posting some closeup photos showing these "Yellow/orange" eggs?
You can see them very clearly in the second picture in their species description.
In your second photo under red cherry shrimp section you have a photo of a group of all red cherry shrimp, and it appears to be males and females. Is that correct?
Incorrect. Those are all females with one juvenile in the foreground. Although the juvenile is very red, if it turns out to be a male it will lose most of that deep red color.
Then your third photo shows what I think is an immature male that hasn't colored up yet? You don't say anything about him not coloring up yet, someone might only be looking for a pale colored fish as the only example of a "male cherry shrimp".
Incorrect again. That's a fully grown male shrimp. Nowhere did I state that it hasn't colored up yet. Males can range from very clear to having red markings over their bodies. There is some variation in coloration. What's for sure, though, is that they never get fully red like females. Many people think that slim looking red shrimp are males and then proudly proclaim that they have "fully red males." That's just because they don't know any better. Females that have not yet carried any eggs have that "slim" streamlined look. They are usually just as big, or nearly as big, as fully grown males. You made the same mistake by assuming that there are males in the second picture of the red cherry species description. It's a common mistake, but with some experience you'll get the hang of it.
In photo 5 you have an example of a female, with berries that is still pretty pale, perhaps even green/grey by some standards. Of course she will eventually turn red, but do you think this is the reason that some people may think that their red cherry shrimp are "naturally" reverting?
Not at all. When people talk about "reverting" they specifically mean shrimp that are brownish/greyish, with no red whatsoever, popping up in their populations "out of nowhere." Many of these people even post pictures of those shrimp in various forums. It's very clear that those shrimp are not pale red cherries. Pale red cherries still have red on them, even the palest ones, so it's very clear that they are red cherry shrimp. Could a total beginner think that they have some other shrimp, other than red cherries, because they can't tell that a pale shrimp is a red cherry? Sure, but that's not what the article is about and that's not what the frequent reports of "reverted" red cherry shrimp are about. You might want to look around on the internet a little to get an accurate picture of this "phenomenon."
BTW her eggs in photo # 5 don't really look that orange/red. Maybe it's the photograph but by the standards that you put down in the article that would suggest that she's not purebred.
The eggs on that female were yellow. The picture is a bad one because it was still taken with my old point and shoot camera with a magnifying lens held in front of it. I should remove that picture and replace it with a new one.
I think it may be people often see uncolored females, carrying eggs that they feel that there is a random reversion, not because there are so many hybrids coming into the market.
Read above. That is not what's happening in the cases I am talking about. It's very evident when someone is confused about his pale shrimp being red cherry shrimp or not. That's a different scenario.
"simple mendelian genetics" - You stated that a cherry crossed to a wild produced all green shrimp. What did the offspring of that cross look like?
I didn't let it get to that, as I needed the tank for other "pure" species breeding projects. I do have a hybrid/mixed colony of red and "wild color" shrimp right now that someone sent me because he was moving and could not take the shrimp with him. So, if I am bent on proving Mendel, I can check if the ratios apply to this colony. But, that's not really the point I was making above. The point is that the OFFSPRING DID NOT LOOK LIKE ANY OF THE PARENTS. And...there must be MORE going on then SIMPLE MENDELIAN genetics if the F1 generation does not look like the wild-type dominant parent. I.e. the red gene might be recessive according to Mendel, but the fact that the F1 hybrids look different indicates there is more to the whole story. THAT is the point.
Simple Mendelian genetics, if red is recessive, so far have perfectly agreed with your 1st crossing.
Incorrect again, see above. They *may* have agreed just with the red trait, but even that remains to be seen.
The red colors may be indeed more complex and carried on several genes but a single cross back to the wild type (as state in this thread) would not prove this complexity.
Not proving anything. Hypothesizing given the evidence. See above...the offspring did not look like any of the parents. I.e. probably more color genes involved than just one.
If you are going to argue that the red color comes from more than one gene then you have also opened the door that a multiple gene effect could cause a throw back.
As I have already stated in my reply to "Terran" above, the point is not to philosophize about the genetic complexity of red cherry shrimp, but to tell people that their "throwbacks" are results of hybridization. That part of my argument is as real as the computer screen in front of you. You have stated yourself that you haven't seen enough LFS tanks or importer tanks or even bags of imported red cherry shrimp (with tons of wild-type Neocaridina sp. in the same bags), so you would not know the severity of this hybridization phenomenon. However, I do as I have, and still am, witnessing these things all over the place.
And although I agree, that so far, I haven't seen any cherry shrimp that have really reverted to a wild type I don't think that you can state that it just can't happen.
Where did I state that it can't happen? I actually stated the opposite. What I am saying, again, is that "throwbacks/reversions" cannot account for the frequency of reports of "brown" shrimp appearing in, seemingly, every third tank around the country/cybercpace. The mutation that would have to happen to cause a red shrimp to go brown/grey again has a very, very low probability of happening. This is NOT the same as a certain strain of guppy producing a non-typically colored guppy. The red shrimp do *not* have the gene for the "brown/grey" color anymore and it would take a *random* mutation for that gene to appear again. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.
Finally, what have you heard from the experts in Germany and the rest of the EU on reversions in Cherry shrimp?
I *am* an "expert from Germany" so I don't have to consult anyone there. I know what's going on in the shrimp hobby in Germany. Actually, the consultation usually goes the opposite direction accross the big pond. And, contrary to popular belief, there aren't all that many "experts" in Germany as most people tend to believe. There are maybe a handful (at most). There are a lot more hobbyists there, but their knowledge isn't any bigger than the knowledge of the average hobbyist here in the US. Having said that...other "experts" agree.
Those that have kept them for a long time and don't have any of the possible "new crosses"? Do they reach the same conclusions?
Have you checked with any of the experts in Tawain or Japan to see if they've reached the same conclusions? They've certainly been dealing with the shrimp a LOT longer than any of us can claim in the US.
As I have said above already, the red cherry shrimp has only been around since about spring/summer 2003, so my colony is about as old (or older) as anyone's colony in Germany or Asia. So, no, nobody has been dealing with these shrimp any longer elsewhere, excpect for the guy/fish farm that developed it. As for "experts" in Taiwan and Japan...I have no direct contact with anyone there as the shrimp breeders there tend to not speak any English/German (and my Chinese is a bit rusty, my Japanese non-existent). Either way, being a productive shrimp breeder does not mean that you are necessarily an "expert" in genetics or even have what could be considered "good knowledge" of genetics (or expertise in anything else besides being able to produce shrimp). So, I don't see your point.
Just to clarify a confusion you (and likely many others) seem to have here. There just aren't that many well-rounded "experts" shrimp hobbyists (or even just breeders), be it here, Germany, Japan...you name it. Some people in the US seem to have the (wrong) impression that Germany and Japan are "full of experts" (and breeders) with "so much more knowledge." Being an aquarist from Germany I can tell you that that is utter and complete nonsense. Some of the shrimp keepers/sellers in Germany that misguided people here consider to be "experts", just because they have a website or whose name was mentioned in connection with Germany (don't want to name any names here) have, at best, rudimentary knowledge about shrimp, shrimp keeping/breeding, shrimp genetics, and other aspects of the shrimp hobby. The situation in Japan, judging from their websites, is unlikely to be any different.
Fact is that *today* the shrimp hobby in the US is just as advanced, if not more advanced actually, as anywhere else in the world, including Germany and Japan. We did have a later start here than in Germany and Japan (but not later than Singapore/Southeast Asia for example, which some other misguided people also put on pedestals and declare anyone from there with some crystal reds in their tanks "experts"), but I have done everything to get the hobby up to speed in the US....and, by the looks of it, I was quite successful. We have caught up and have surpassed. We actually do have a flourishing shrimp hobby in the US now, where there used to be utter confusion, mythology, tons of false "experts" and just plain bad advice and speculation. Nevermind the fact that shrimp were thought of as curiosities in community tanks. (The concept of the "shrimp tank" in the US got its start right here on this website). If it had been up to me I would have put up this website even earlier and "jumpstarted" things, but other things had priority. Yes, there are still fewer shrimp keepers in the US than in Germany or Japan, but that will change over time, too. But when it comes to knowledge and expertise, it's *quality* that counts, not quantity. I hope this clarifies a few things about "expertise" in various countries and the state of the shrimp hobby in the US and elsewhere.
BTW what are the genetics on your white shrimp? Is that a recessive gene that totally dissapears when you cross it back to the wild-type? How about for the second generation?
I have not done any crossing experiments with my snowballs and their wild-type yet, so I can't comment from first-hand experience. However, others have and from their reports it seems that the snowballs' genetics are similar to the red cherry shrimp's, i.e. no white in the first generation. But, again, those are second hand reports and I'll report on it again once (and if) I conduct my own crossing experiments.