Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum

After letting the F1 population dwindle down to about 5 specimens I took two remaining females with eggs and hung them in a 8 X 10 fish net in the Dwarf Cajun Crayfish tank and removed them once the eggs had hatched.

During routine maintenance today, I discovered I have many hundreds of new F2 gen. Ghost Glass shrimp younglings about 3/16 inch long. The next generation is assured.
I widely use them in many of my display and grow-out tanks for both their interesting ways and they help eat the bbs the fry may miss.
I match them to the fish size to avoid unwanted predation either way.

Not an accomplishment on par with redfire's recent reported great success
breeding the Amanos but still good practice to continue building on my knowledge base of ornamental shrimp cultivation. I give many away to friends, family and beginning aquarists. Shrimp keeping is new to most aquarists and the common SE American Ghost Glass Shrimp is a perfect introduction to the joys of shrimp keeping.

apistomaster wrote:I took two remaining females with eggs and hung them in a 8 X 10 fish net in the Dwarf Cajun Crayfish tank and removed them once the eggs had hatched.

During routine maintenance today, I discovered I have many hundreds of new F2 gen. Ghost Glass shrimp younglings about 3/16 inch long.

I once caught a fish this big!
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I demand a recount!

Either you have a different shrimp than you think, or you didn't count right. If you had P. Pugio instead of P. paludosus I could buy "many hundreds", but if you have P. paludosus you have maybe 100 tops from 2 females.

All the same, I like the idea of putting them in a net, and congrats is in order on the hatch! The zoes can get out and then it is easy to remove the females.

badflash wrote:[ I like the idea of putting them in a net, and congrats is in order on the hatch! The zoes can get out and then it is easy to remove the females.

That IS an awesome idea! I often have more than one female ghost berried and was wondering how I could keep the newborns of one from being eaten by the other expectant mother.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Hi Badflash,
I did not count them, just guestimated. The first time this species was bred and raised in my tanks was year and a half ago from four females I did raise over 300 shrimp. These were old large females. All that I kept from the original batch are nearing the end of their life span and are as large as any I've seen. Two inches from tip of rostrum to end of tail. Maybe because there are few losses to cannibalism is why the numbers are high.
I used the same method this time. I sold most of that first batch to a LFS so I counted out what I sold which was two hundred. The rest I kept or gave away to a lot of people, usually 10 at a time until I was left with about 30.
They have mostly died of old age. I am keeping them with Discus, Hypancistrus and Apistogramma species, most of which are kept at 84dF. I assume that at those temps that 1.5 years is good mileage. I was down to five, noticed that the remaining females were carrying eggs shortly after a water change and decided to try to salvage them with a new generation. I was successful in attaining my goal. I just happen to enjoy this species because it is hardy, tolerates Discus temps and are always out competing fearlessly with fish which probably outweigh them a hundred fold.

There are pitfalls to inductive reasoning. Just because you may not have ever had that many shrimp produced from a couple of similar shrimp does not mean others' results may vary from your own experience. Something to consider. For some reason I seem to have results whether reproductive or certain combinations you say are not possible. My shrimp and fish just are. They don't listen to what they're "supposed" to do.

I do not know for certain what species they are. I have had both the feeder type shrimp and another supposed to be from SA in my tanks. They looked the same to me but I never put any under a stereo microscope and keyed them out. I don't even know what their maximum brood sizes can be. I only know what I have.

I am in no position to dispute your results in your tanks. Shrimp are fun to keep as an adjunct to my commercial tropical fish business. They are my hobby within what is otherwise my business.

My other avocation is fly fishing. I live where the steelhead regularly exceed 25 lb.s. I don't need to exaggerate the size of the fish I catch and release but if you must know, the last one I released had a shadow that weighed 5lb.s

American Glass Shrimp is usually P. paludosus and the max number of eggs per female is around 90. They breed in ure fresh water. The species that requires brackish water to reproduce have more babies per female, but the survival rate is lower too. Even with P. paludosus the survival to post-larval is not 100%.

My point is that 1. Great job having such a success, but 2, Don't put out info that is just guessing, or if you are guessing say so. We don't want to mis-lead people here.

badflash wrote:American Glass Shrimp is usually P. paludosus and the max number of eggs per female is around 90. They breed in ure fresh water. The species that requires brackish water to reproduce have more babies per female, but the survival rate is lower too. Even with P. paludosus the survival to post-larval is not 100%.

My point is that 1. Great job having such a success, but 2, Don't put out info that is just guessing, or if you are guessing say so. We don't want to mis-lead people here.

You are pushing the boundaries of getting personal with the tack you are taking with me. I believe The Rules caution against this kind of thing.
We all owe each other mutual respect.

I stated I had several hundred young shrimp from two gravid females. There are close to 200.
You say the maximum is 90 per so if I have 180 instead of 201 that is not throwing around wildly misleading information. For that matter, what proof do you have that some females don't occassionally produce 101 instead of 90? Nature does not fall into neatly defined outcomes. We ALL use generalities. This is aquaculture not mathematics.

I kindly suggest you watch your manners and language when you question the integrity of a post by someone with 40 years of involvement in the OTF business.

If you wish to split hairs that's just fine but be careful that you do not call into question the veracity of others.

Hello Apistomaster,

I really don't think that badflash is trying to get personal in any way, shape or form. He's basically just repeating the mantra that I have been spreading here for years: Try to be as precise and scientific with your information as possible. Use the scientific process (including "peer review" techniques).

Questioning what other people say is actually part of the scientific process. It's a very healthy way at either finding out the truth or closely approximating it. Only when people take it personally does it really become personal. You won't see Nobel Prize laureates getting insulted just because another scientists published a paper questioning the Nobel Prize laureates results and techniques.

What a good scientist would do is either back up claims by providing some kind of evidence, or admit that his/her results/numbers are approximations and not to be taken literally....without getting insulted.

People have questioned me since I first put up this website. What I was saying and spreading went against all "shrimp wisdom" that some pseudo-experts had been spreading up to this point. My results/research/views/conclusions etc. are still questioned by people today. Every time that happens I just dig out my evidence, present my case and close the whole issue. If I don't have evidence I will say that I am theorizing.

Badflash is only doubting what you are saying because all kinds of scientific literature sets their maximum fecundity at about 80 or so eggs (what I have read anyway). Keep in mind that these are *maximum* numbers from huge females caught in the wild. Does that mean that there can't be females that can carry more? No, of course not....but over the decades that these things have been recorded you would think that more of these super-fecund females would get caught and recorded.

So, now that you report having several females that actually exceed this number it raises some eyebrows (including mine). I've been keeping and breeding this species since ancient times (way before my first red cherries) and I have never seen any female that even exceeded, say, 40-50 eggs. Most of the time I only see 20-30 (approximately).

Plus, 100% larval survival, or anything close to 100% is extremely rare, both in aquaculture and in scientific labs. That's another thing that raises eyebrows when reported. Nothing is impossible, but certain things that go against the results of many others over the years, especially in a scientific environment with peer review, are less likely to be accurate if reported without evidence of some sort.

The bottom line is, that we actually *want* to question the veracity of others in this forum. That's one of the things that makes this forum so different from others. Elsewhere people get offended if you say anything that indicates that you don't believe them and that they are supposed to produce evidence. In this forum, such questioning is encouraged and, many times, required to prove anything beyond mere theorizing.

See below for more....

I kindly suggest you watch your manners and language when you question the integrity of a post by someone with 40 years of involvement in the OTF business.

As I said above...I did not see anything wrong with badflash's manners and/or language. Nothing is meant to be personal in this forum. Besides, any kind of credentials here and there don't mean anything if you use the scientific peer review process (or at least try to approximate it in an online forum). No matter if you are a "guru" elsewhere or have decades of experience in something related, you still have to back up claims in this forum. In other words, credentials and "reputation" don't free you of the burden of proof.

If you wish to split hairs that's just fine but be careful that you do not call into question the veracity of others.

See above. We *want* question the veracity of others in this forum. We are merely trying to approximate the scientific peer review process and not trying to make things personal here. What purpose would getting personal serve? Absolultely none, especially since you guys don't even know each other and have nothing to get personal about.

So, let's all relax here and just accept that this is the way the forum is (and probably pretty unique that way) and try to not take things personally.

apistomaster-
No offence was intended.

I can't add to what Mustafa said. If I post something that you find incredible, feel free to challenge me. That is what we do here. I've been taken down a notch or two many times. I try to learn from it and come back for more.

Hi All,
I'm probably over sensitive to having my statements doubted than is warranted.

Part of the reason why I am is that I am also very particular about accuracy myself. I was not thinking precision to the Nth degree was required when dropping an approximate number of observed shrimp. After all what are a few per centage points plus or minus 200?

I've been involved a lot lately with some public debates about Symphysodon discus Heckel and things became quite heated and my statements were being disputed by those with very little experience but by those who parroted a great deal from incorrect information taken from out dated publication or outright rumors.
Heiko Bleher, a widely recognized expert on all things discus, appeared out of the ether and backed me up. I am not given to passing along misinformation nor suffering those that do.

I am a stickler for accuracy myself so I understand the questioning. It is because I hold myself to a high standard that I try my best to be accurate whether in a post or other communications. I don't ask that my statements be taken on faith but I hope that out of this thread we become better aquainted with each other and consider the source.

I have been the owner of businesses of breeding fish, wholesaling and retailing, off and on since 1966. I began breeding wild discus in 1969 when I was only 17. I would only ask that I not be considered just some dilettante as clearly, I wasn't born yesterday. I am now retired and breed rare and difficult species full time.

I am new to the shrimp forum and relatively new to shrimp culture which I am finding is an enjoyable aspect of aquaristics. I want to learn more and contribute where I can.

No harm has been done. Just keep an open mind. Shrimp keeping and breeding as a hobby is still young and I'm sure there are plenty of surprises ahead of us as our collective experience grows.

I'm thick skinned and totally understand getting your back up when you are questioned. I also understand having a bad day, or having carry over from an unrelated unpleasant situation. Heck we are people after all.

I would be very interested if you would take some pictures next time and make an accurate tally of how many post-larvals you end up with. I know from personal experience with cherries that it is tough to see the difference between 50 and 150 moving shrimp. The only way to know is to scoop them out and count, or take a good picture and count (not as accurate, but lots easier).

There may come a time when only captive stock bred may be available, so you can contribute a lot. Even if your count isn't accurate, the fact that you ended up with a large number from 2 females is better than any other report I've read. The info may also help with other shrimp that breed in fresh water and have a larval stage like several other glass shrimp species.

Don't let me turn you off, keep on breeding!

Hi badflash,
You are right about bad days. Those are poor times to post.

As I did describe before, the first time I raised a a bach of the Ghost shrimp from the four large femals I sold 200 to the LFS and also gave the remainders away in groups of ten and kept about 30.

Not having bred them prior to that I had no idea how many would result but I was amazed at the number I got the first time for which the count was fairly accurate. I can't see where this F2 Generation was different except the number was 2 instead of 4 females.

So, you may see that from my perspective, the outcome was "normal."
My method prevented cannibalism by the adults and the young were all the same age group so cannibalism among them must have been minmal.
I do use microfoods initially which may further enhance the batch survival rates.

I do know that with the Red Cherries for everyone I see there are many more too small to easily see with the eyes of a 55 yr old man. There are almost always more shrimp present than a glance would first indicate.

I just raise them for the fun of it.

So share the wealth! What microfoods are you using? What sort of filtration, etc. These shrimp areinexpensive enough that anyone can afford them, so they make a perfect intoduction for breeding larval shrimp, only few have had much success.

Like a lot of things, it is simple once you know how, but hard if you don't.

That is a very high % of survival.

The most I have been able to get from 1 Female has been 11.

I would also like to know what types of Micro-foods you are using.

John

apistomaster-
When you get the chance see if you can get a good pic of some of your adults. The more you talk about them the more I think these are not american glass (grass) shrimp. There are other spppecies easily confused and often sold as ghost, glass or grass shrimp that have many more eggs. Please don't take offence, I'm just trying to make sense of this. This could explain what is happening here.

As an example, check this link:
viewtopic.php?t=1583&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I use microworms and some of the culture media which is rich in yeast and bacteria as the first food on the glass type shrimp. I feed the tank on faith that the larvae are present since they are not visible to my eys. After 3 or 4 weeks I begin seeing large numbers of miniature shrimp, already looking like the adults.

At this time, I don't think I have any live adults left.. Those last five were well over 1-1/2 years old and as I have mentioned before I keep them in with warmwater fish species Rmember this was a last chance spawning. Since I raised them I knew how old they were.. Their apparent comfort in this warm water has made me wonder myself whether I was keeping the common feeder shrimp or just a similar looking tropical species.

I will have to let these currently young batch grow out before I will be able to post some photos of adults of both sexes. I'll do it as soon as I can. They grow up fast so the wait won't be too long. They certainly looked very much like you photos above.