Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum

Has anyone here kept them with Cherry Shrimp? I just picked up a few and thought they would like nice in my Cherry shrimp tank. They are so small I don't know if they would do any harm but thought I better check before adding them in.

Thanks!

They are likely too small to harm adults, but they will still eat the babies. They're also rather darty little fish, and this may stress the shrimp out.

Do you know if the ones you bought were wild caught? Their wild populations have been absolutely devastated by the aquarium trade

i've got some in a heavily planted tank with cherry shrimp, they eat the baby shrimp, and i also barely ever see them since they hide IN the java moss so much that covers 1/4 of the tank in a plastic mesh that makes a wall

There are no more wild caught. The habitiat was totally destroyed within a year of discovery. Fortunately, they breed well in captvity.

Kind of off-topic, but I just want to assure everyone that the habitat of Celestichthys was not "destroyed." The original location is a mess, no doubt, but other locations were a virtual certainty, from the beginning. Celestichthys is one of those species that takes advantage of temporarily flooded areas (swamps, rice paddies) to rapidly develop a large population. While they were highly over-collected, there's no danger of them becoming extinct for that reason. If the original locality had been the only locality, they would have been doomed from the get-go - it was TINY. The geography of the region made it highly unlikely that a species of fish would be confined to such a small area.

I think the REAL cautionary tale with the celestial pearl danio is to avoid the kind of panic (ZOMG THE HOBBY HAS CAUSED THE EXTICTION OF A FISH!!!!) that we saw in the beginning. Remember the "almost certainly" extinct Endler's livebearer? Remember, legislators and the animal-rights crowd are watching.

The hobby would be the wrong target. The countries that allow the taking and exporting of wildlife, or refuse to enforce or fund existing laws are the problem. The USA makes it quite difficult to import protected animals. Ones that show up here in any number are legitimately imported.

Get caught taking a protected species in the USA and you'll truly be sorry.

I totally agree the hobby would be the wrong target. But the hobby put a big target on its own chest with this fish. I would categorize the reaction from the hobby (particularly Practical Fishkeeping mag) as nothing short of hysteria when the first reports of a decline in numbers of the c.p.d. surfaced.

In any event, habitat destruction is taking place and no one, but responsible hobbyists, is willing or able to spend the time & money to preserve many species. That is why I've chosen a few species to keep in order to keep them going after they are gone from the wild. This is happening to shrimp as well as fish.

If we do a good enough job, it may be possible to one day return them to the wild.

Practical Fishkeeping did go a little bit overboard with the galaxies, but I think the number of people they alienated with that approach is much smaller than the number of people they opened up to the issue. Such is life; the only way to get many points across effectively is to exaggerate...

badflash wrote:In any event, habitat destruction is taking place and no one, but responsible hobbyists, is willing or able to spend the time & money to preserve many species.

So true...

badflash wrote: If we do a good enough job, it may be possible to one day return them to the wild.

You have to admit, that's a bit of a long shot. Captive bred stock can easily feed the aquarium people, but that's because there is money to be made there.
When there is zero chance of financial return, you will find very few people willing to invest the amount required to breed species for the sole purpose of releasing them back into the wild. It's nice to imagine, but I just don't see it happening..

Yeah, for the most part, "re-release into the wild" is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I guess I'm not making my point exactly clear - I'm not concerned with alienation, I'm concerned with the tropical fish industry being portrayed as a negative force in terms of conservation. It is an exceedingly slim chance that collecting fish for the aquarium hobby is ever going to cause the extinction of a fish in the wild. If that is possible for a given species, then it's doomed to begin with: A drought, a chemical spill, a flood, etc is going to take it out first.

And on that note, I've talked myself out on this subject.

For the most part, there is no positive for the animals or the environment with the aquarium industry. Think about it. It provides incentive for native peoples to destroy their own habitiats for money. Most of the animals die in transit, just about 100% of the rest either die in owners tanks or are flushed or worse, released into places they have no buisness going.

The only thing I see as a positive that would sell to the environment folks is the preservation of species by responsible hobbiests. Wile it is a long shot, it has and does happen. Our study of invertebrates and discovery of ways to breed them may be their only hope. Hobbiests rarely think of economics when it comes totheir favorite critters. They can fund a species or two and that can be the deciiding factor 20 years from now when some of these areas are restored.

badflash wrote:that can be the deciiding factor 20 years from now when some of these areas are restored.

The unfortunate thing about releasing tank-bred animals when - and if - their native habitats regain suitability is that the captive environment is dramatically different from their natural home. So in our private rearing practices, we are unwittingly affecting the evolution of our breeding projects. After several generations, nevermind 20 years or so, of semi-domestication our shrimp will have become adapted to tank life. We did not do so deliberately, but the individuals who survived were simply better suited to the domestic life. Plus, we may be working with greatly reduced genetic diversity as most captive breeding projects are the result of a small founder population. Both the above factors can mean that re-releasing such animals will have low success.

I'm not trying to put a damper on any of the well thought-out points made in this thread. I'm just adding my perspective on why I'm not totally optimistic. A good example of breeding projects having unexpected and even adverse effects is salmon hatcheries. Even if the hatcheries use the exact same species, they are finding that local populations have different trait sets than those of the fish they are bringing in to replenish the natural populations. Not only do the new stock of salmon carry genetotypes better suited to the area from which they originated, but they are also captive-bred and have lost many of the skills they need to survive in the wild. A prime indication of this is that hatchery-raised fish come toward people as they have associated humans with feeding time. Whereas wild fish have a natural fear of large animals such as man, which they perceive as potential predators. There are many accounts and measurements of this in recent fisheries journals.

One summary of these findings can be found from the NorthWest Fisheries Science Center (NWFSC) of the United States' National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), an organization to which my laboratory has many working ties
http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/ ... 1/tm41.pdf

BG: The salmon thing - are you certain you're not referring to a learned behavior? EDIT: Oops, just skimmed your post. Anyway, such learned behaviors can be overcome, even in captivity. I have seen studies where even being approached by a predator (as in the case of a glass divider) increases the wariness and escape capabilities of young fish. The main problem with re-releasing fish is genetics. It can be done (as with Fundulus julisae), but such efforts are merely prolonging the inevitable.

BF: Well, then why on Earth are you supporting what you perceive to be a negative factor in the preservation of of the environment?

I, for one, think the aquarium hobby is of tremendous value when it comes to "the environment" (how I hate that term!). As an educational tool, an aquarium is almost without peer, when used to display the effects a few environmental priciples in concert. An aquarium provides a "window" into a world many would otherwise never have the opportunity to visit. An aquarium promotes the appreciation of beauty found in the "natural" world.

Further, it DOES help protect natural areas, as areas used for collection provide an income for those living in such areas - they have a stake in preserving a sustainable population. Occasionally, demand can outstrip supply, as in the c.p.d., but I think most would agree that the effects of the aquarium industry (and, don't I wish it were more of a hobby than an industry) are overwhelmingly positive.

As to the regrettable losses of fish lives due to capture, shipping, etc, I hate to break this to you, but, without exception, 100% of fish left in the wild die.

Ok, NOW I'm done. I think.

I think we are all in violent agreement, we just don't know it. Obviously, we all collect and attempt to breed these animals. I do not buy animals from anyone but private breeders and collectors at this point.

The only animals I have purchased in the last 2 years that are wild caught are amanos and bamboo shrimp. The only reason I did this was to try to further the research in captive breeding of these animals. I have the same goal with any animals I collect from the wild. I'm not pointing a finger of blame at anyone here. I've just learned and moved on. I'm hoping others will do the same.

I do rescue unwanted animals now & then from folks who have grown bored with them. I have a working figure 8 puffer that is simply a joy to watch clean plants of unwanted crawlies. I have no hope of breeding him.

I encourage everyone here to only buy tank bred animals. As far as their adaptation to tank environments, that is for sure, but that does not mean we've bred out the wild genes. It just means it takes a little more care to acclimate them back to the wilds. The science of re-introduction has come a long way and will continue to develop. Don't give up hope.

What a good topic!

As coincidence would have it, the subject of my argumentation paper at my college English class, happens to be this. The importance of learning to aquaculture our aquarium critters, and stop wild collection.

The problem is, I can't seem to find any good references. I honestly don't know much of the details, like everyone in this thread does. Where did all of you learn about this? I want to learn, I just don't know where.