Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum

I love the results some people achieve by aquascaping their aquarium, and i decided i want in on the action. I've never had or maintained an aquarium before (except when i was really young, about ten years ago, my parents had some goldfish). So i'm going to need all the hints and tips i can get.
The goal is to have a substrate with waterplants that are mostly moss and ferns. The substrate will also have some wood sticking up vertically on which i plan to plant moss to make it look like trees. It will also have rocks that are partly covered by substrate and moss. The idea is basically this: http://ldsearthstewardship.org/wp-conte ... grove1.jpg
combined with this: http://ldsearthstewardship.org/wp-conte ... -gorge.jpg

In the long term, after cycling the tank and growing the moss and ferns, i want to introduce small freshwater shrimp. Such as these crystal red SS (might have to take different ones, depending on my tapwater parameters): http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/s ... 302948.jpg
I made a few calls and a few biketrips and eventually got a hold of someone who could tell me where my tapwaters comes from and what it contains. Here is the table:

Parameter Average Norm
Aluminium (Al) < 20 μg/l 200
Calcium (Ca) 47 mg/l 270
Chloride (Cl) 52 mg/l 250
Fluor (F) < 0.4 mg/l 1.5
Ijzer (Fe) < 20 μg/l 200
Geleidbaarheid 614 μS/cm 2100
Kalium (K) 3 mg/l
Magnesium (Mg) 7.9 mg/l 50
Mangaan (Mn) < 5 μg/l 50
Ammonium (NH4) < 0.3 mg/l 0.5
Nitriet (NO2) < 0.05 mg/l 0.1
Nitraat (NO3) 35 mg/l 50
Natrium (Na) 75 mg/l 200
Zuurstof (O2) 11.8 mg/l -
Lood (Pb) < 5 μg/l 25
Sulfaat (SO4) 80 mg/l 250
total Hardness (TH) 17.5 °F 67.5
pH 7.97
TAC (KH) 16.5 °F

So pH = 8, DH = 9.8 d° and KH = 9.25 d°, [Cl] = 52 mg/l
ammonium and nitirite concentration are almost zero, so after cycling the tank, the bacterial colonies shouldn't have a problem with progressing it. Nitrate concentration is 35 mg/l.

The volume of the aquarium i'm going to buy will be somewhere between 250 and 350 litres. I would like to know how adding substrate, rocks, pieces of woods and plantation such as javamoss and ferns is going to adjust these valuables?
My room temperature is 20-21 °C. I figured i would probably need a 150W heater to keep it slightly warmer (Maximum 23-24 °C so a dT of 3 °C at most), but i would like to hear your opinions on this.
I also read somewhere that water filtration should be about 3-4 times the aquarium volume each hour. Given that my aquarium will be around 300 litres , the filter should be capable of 1200 litres an hour. So i estimate about a 20W filter, at most. I don't plan on adding fish, so does this turnover of 3 to 4 times the volume each hour still apply to shrimp only? What i'm basically asking is: are shrimp as dirty as fish when it comes to excretion? I also know i need a sponge filter to keep shrimp from being sucked in.
Moss and ferns don't need alot of light, I'm thinking of going will blacklight LED and white light Led (total of 36W).
When i know how the mix of these components will eventually turn out, i can choose my species of shrimp accordingly. As far as cycling the tank goes, i'll have to find someone who can spare a couple of fish for a couple of weeks. Or i could also ask for someone's old filter material. What do you suggest for cycling the tank?

So to recap this not so coherent wall of text: I've got an empty tank to fill. I want to keep the running costs as low as possible, and i want to achieve this by adjusting the species of shrimp to the tank conditions and not the tank conditions to the species of shrimp. You now know my tapwater specifications, so what kind of substrate, rocks, plantation do you recommend, given the fact that i'm going to keep freshwater shrimp in it?


Thank you in advance!

Ardelame. Not to stifle your interest but.... Keeping shrimp is harder than gold fish and most freshwater fish. The two planted tanks you linked are beautiful but these are not beginner setups. I believe in taking baby steps. Mosses are great starter plants and the shrimp feed off the biofilm growing on them. Start with cherry shrimp, the neo's. They are hardy and thrive in a wide range of water parameters. Once you excel with neo's for a year then try the Caridina's. Read the 'Articles' linked above for more useful information. I hope this helps. Post updates as you procede.

COTIGIRL wrote:Ardelame. Not to stifle your interest but.... Keeping shrimp is harder than gold fish and most freshwater fish. The two planted tanks you linked are beautiful but these are not beginner setups. I believe in taking baby steps. Mosses are great starter plants and the shrimp feed off the biofilm growing on them. Start with cherry shrimp, the neo's. They are hardy and thrive in a wide range of water parameters. Once you excel with neo's for a year then try the Caridina's. Read the 'Articles' linked above for more useful information. I hope this helps. Post updates as you procede.

COTIGIRL, first of all: thanks for the reply.

I'll be using only moss species for my plantation. I will specifically select those species that are hardy, thrive in a wide interval of water paramaters, and don't require a lot of light or care. This way i can learn while i go, and any mistakes i make won't weigh as much on the moss or the shrimp. The aquascaping tanks I posted look great, but they don't contain a large variety of plants. I believe i can obtain the same results with two or three different species of moss. They mostly look great because of great composition, lush and abundant vegetation and regular trimming. I think i will be fine as long as i don't neglect anything.

As for the shrimp, I never claimed it would be as easy as keeping goldfish. I have done my research and i've come to the conclusion that many different species of shrimp require strict water parameter intervals. Would you say it it wise for me to first set up my tank. Pick the gravel, substrate, moss, driftwood,stones.. and so on. Than see what my parameters are like (ph kh dh ..) and based on that pick a species of hardy shrimp?

Also, do you think i need a heater? My room is 20 °C. How much watt would you suggest for a 200l tank?

Thanks again!

Best thing to do is setup your tank. Sponge filter (air driven) is very useful for shrimp. Heater may not be necessary if your house/room temperature stays constant. Did i read this correct 200 litres? 50 gallons? Wow! That is large for a first tank. Do as you wish but that is a under taking. Most people start with 20 or 40 litres. It is inevitable if you enjoy the hobby that you will end up with many tanks of various sizes. I have 5 active tanks, a 10, 2-5, 2-1 gallon and a 5000 gallon koi pond. I have 2-55 gallon and a 125 gallon converted to terrariums. Maybe 6 other tanks in storage that i would like to give away.

Sorry got carried away. To properly setup a shrimp tank you should wait a good two months. Shrimp need a good amount of biofilm and a fully cycled tank. Rushing the process leads to unnecessary shrimp losses. I cannot stress this enough start small then grow. The 3:1 to 4:1 filter flow rate is for fish - shrimp and moss do not need that much. If you are going large, sponge filters (air driver) are still useful. You will need to cover the intake of the filter with sponge or else suck up the shrimp. After tank is cycled check parameters and then go with shrimp that meet you conditions. 200 litres i would say 200 watt heater. What is a blacklight led?

Wow, you sure are experienced in keeping aquatic flora & fauna. I'm glad you're assisting me.

I'm not completely sure i'm allowed to post links to products on this forum, so i will refrain from that. But could you run this through and correct me if i'm wrong?

Tank dimensions: 80x40x60 cm³ = 192 litres = 51 gallons.
Pump: 400 litres/h (turnover 2:1 because shrimp don't make that much of a mess compared to fish)
Filter (connected to the pump): spongefilter (so shrimp and their babies don't get sucked in)

I'm still not completely educated about filters. I've read there are three types of filters: Mechanical, Chemical and Biological.
Am i correct in saying that:
1) a mechanical filter uses some kind of sift that block and collects larger fragments? There are no chemical processes going on.
2) a chemical filter is something like a carbon column that collects metals and harmful molecules?
3) a biofilter contains a pad in which two different species of bacteria form a nitrifying colony (nitrosomas and another species i forgot).

Do i need all three of these filters? If i do, do i need to run them in tandem or all seperately (with three different pumps)? Or will just a biofilter suffice?

My experience with shrimp is in smaller tanks. 40 litres-10 gallon and smaller. At those sizes a simple air powered sponge filter is all you need. It provides mostly biofiltration and some mechanical fitration. You would need several large ones for a 50 gallon. It will not look nice like the linked pictures. Canister filters can do all three. I would use a couple sponge filters and a couple canister filters. This way when you clean a filter an old filter is still working doing biofiltration. People who run large tanks should chime in. You realize this setup can weigh over 500 lbs. weekly 10% water changes is 5gallons. If i sound like i am trying to discourage you i am not. I do not want you to be overwhelmed and quit the hobby. That is why i keep suggesting 10 gallon tanks. I will not bother you again about the size of your tank.

My aquarium has a vinyl wrap around it, like this: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... A7YxIs4gwa
So it doesn't look at nice as other aquascape's, but it does provide cover for intrusive elements such as a filter.

As far as a filter goes, i'm going with an internal filter, the Jewel Biofilter 3.0 (600l/h, turnover 4:1). It has mechanical, biological and chemical (carbon sponge) filtration.

The aquarium is indeed quite large, and i know it's a big leap for a beginner like me. But it does have its advantages. Larger tanks create more room for error as far as off parameters go. I've been 'lurking' aquarium forums for a decent amount of time, and i'm pretty certain this is a thing i want to keep doing. It would only costs me more time and money if i start off small and then eventually have to upgrade to a bigger tank, with more substrate and more rocks. Buying substrate and rocks in larger amounts is vastly cheaper than buying one rock or one liter substrate at a time. With all the equipment combined, i will looking at a cost range between 500 and 600 euro's. That's at least 800 dollars. Compared to a smaller 10 gallon tank that's alot, but in the long run it will be cheaper. I'm 22 years of age, studying so with no steady income, which means i want my money to go a long way.

My tapwater nitrate concentration is 35 mg/l (or ppm). The shrimp will also produce nitrate. Do you think that the combination of biofilter and abundant vegetation (mostly moss: java/flame/xmass) will take care of this relatively high nitrate levels?

How often do you advise me to WC? The tank will be filled with water for 75 %, which gives me 144 litres. For example, 10% of that is 14 litres, which isn't much (a bucket and a half). You think i should do weekly waterchanges? I've read on some shrimptank forums that a combination of shrimp and vegetation drastically lowers the need to change that often, because shrimp aren't as productive as far ass excretion of ammonium goes. The ammonium that is produced and converted to nitrate, should be taken up by the plants. What is your opinion on this?

Also: I will be using rocks (seiryu or ryouh), aquasoil, and a small amount of driftwood. These components all lower the pH. The pH of my tapwater is 8, but when it's in the tank it should lower to around 6 - 7.
The hardness of my water is kH = 9.25 and dH = 9.5. This is pretty high, and there is nothing i can do about it (or willing to do about it). I will not use RO water because i think it's too much trouble.

Given these parameters (pH, kH, dH), could you recommend me a hardy species of shrimp that can live in these conditions?

I do not know what TDS is, could you explain it to me? How does it affect my tank?

Powersand has a high CEC (kation exchange coefficient), do you think i should go with this to bring down the hardness (i'm assuming this sand will bind Ca 2+ and Mg +)?

Shrimp: the neos, cherry is your best option. Hardy and low in price, nice color easy to breed. Thrive in wide conditions. You may need 50 shrimp in a 50 gallon tank just as a start.
Water conditioner: product to remove chloramine and chlorine
Mosses: all are great
WC : 10% +/- 5 gallons a week for your setup
TDS: total dissolved solids (basically all dissolved minerals in your water) seiryu stones may increase your tds. People use $30 us tds meters to determine when to make water changes. Establish a baseline say 200 ppm perform water change at 250 ppm for example.
Aquasoil: lowers pH, leaches ammonia for a couple months in water, needs to be cycled before shrimp added. Good for planted tanks, not needed for neos. Lasts for only two years then needs to be replaced. For advanced shrimp/planted tank keeper.
CEC: cation exchange capacity. I know it as a soils ability to hold onto fertilizers then release them back for plant uptake. Powersand? Have not heard of it. The aquasoil will soften your water.
I have a son your age. I need to temper his enthusiasm at times. Does he always listen? No. So he has losses but it part of learning. He also succeeds which makes life interesting.
Do as you wish but try to keep this a little simpler and cheaper. Use course sand as a substrate. 1/2 inch to inch. Very cheap. Mosses do not need fancy aquasoil. Replace the seiryu stone with large chunks of lava rock or river stone. With your high pH limestone would also work.
Ammonia and nitrites: you should be able to test for them.
A word for constructive help, please do some more research. Research is cheap and as a student it should be easy for you. Also please be careful when listening to advice especially if they are selling you product. My motive is for you to succeed a seller is to pay bills. Remember caveat emptor.

Jumping directly to CRS SS with a high pH like that is a big no-no.
You can try neos or if you have kept tanks before even sulawesi shrimps will work for you but keep in mind they need a constant temp around 80 degrees. No matter what they say about" sulawesi shrimps are hard to keep" i call bull on that as long as you know the basic tank keeping,do waterchange on schedule and not overfeeding and have a great amount of goodbacteria and algae in your tank you should be fine.

But still the last decision of what shrimps to buy is yours to decide.
just keep in mind that crs prefers pH that is around 7.0 or under 7.0 is even better.
neocaridinas can thrive in a wide range of pH from acidic to alkaline and sulwesi shrimps prefers 7.5 ph up to 8.0 pH.

if you were to choose sulawesi shrimp, i highly suggest to pick cardinal shrimps as they are like the cherries of sulawesis