RCS expanding too fast...

[powerbook]

Hi Everyone,
I started my red cherry shrimps colony with 30 shrimps adopted from friend's tank 6 month ago.
Now I have more than 400 shrimps (estimate...). I even sold (craigslist) or give away more than 400 shrimps try to keep the number in check...
I have them in my 37 gallon planted tank ( two lava rock and drift woods with Taiwan moss and others) with others (20 other small fish)
I am worried that whole colony might just crash suddenly.... or could they regulate their population without any artificial control?

Right now. I am doing 25% water change (50:50 on MilliQ water:treated Tap water) and change sponge filter every week.
Temp: 22-23 C

[KenCotigirl]

400 shrimp in a 37 gallon is not a lot. Ten per gallon. They will slow down eventually. 100 per gallon is a good number. So enjoy your 'problem'. There are many others who would like to be in your situation.
Ken

[powerbook]

Wow that many per gallon.
I know My gourami and tetras are hunting for tiny baby shrimps... I guess they are at least contributing for population control.
Thank you. I am less worried.

[KenCotigirl]

Sean you have nothing to worry about especially with fish in the tank which keep the numbers down. Lets revisit my number. 30 adults per gallon is close to maxing out. That leaves some room for babies. Sorry about the 100 number.

A caveat though for those reading this. The 30 number is to be achieved through breeding not just dumping that amount in a tank. That would cause water problems. They way you are doing is the right way.

Ken

[jayr232]

They wouldnt really suddenly crash but if too much inbreeding occurs and they become overpopulated, you will that some of the next generation adults will be stunted.

[powerbook]

I don't know about inbreeding issue. But I found a Rili shrimp from my population. I isolated him and setup breeding chamber with other RCS females.
Hopefully I get more Rili...

[Mustafa]

They wouldnt really suddenly crash but if too much inbreeding occurs and they become overpopulated, you will that some of the next generation adults will be stunted.

This is nonsense. Inbreeding does absolutely nothing to shrimp populations. I would recommend doing some research before giving advice like this. And it's always a good idea to not give advice if you don't have the experience or the knowledge to do so. Imagine the damage you could do if someone actually follows some of the advice...you would not want that to happen to yourself either.

[jayr232]

They wouldnt really suddenly crash but if too much inbreeding occurs and they become overpopulated, you will that some of the next generation adults will be stunted.

This is nonsense. Inbreeding does absolutely nothing to shrimp populations. I would recommend doing some research before giving advice like this. And it's always a good idea to not give advice if you don't have the experience or the knowledge to do so. Imagine the damage you could do if someone actually follows some of the advice...you would not want that to happen to yourself either.

I would say that you might call it nonsense or anything but inbreeding in many generations can actually produce deformed and unhealthy shrimps. Taiwan bees and higher grade crystals are those who suffers more often with this problem as they are highly inbred in order to get their coloration,pattern and even the mutation itself. As such, most of the famous and rare blue bolts gets deformed big carapace. I myself actually have a snow whites who's rostrum is actually short and deformed because the person I bought it from has them from a very small gene pool for about 7 years without introducing new blood. Inbreeding might not be a harm to Opae Ula and other shrimps you own but they can actually harm taiwans and high grade crystals making them unhealthier and can't survive higher pH than 5.6 or whatever the water the breeder keeps them from. My kingkongs can actually thrive in a pH of 6.5-7.2 making them as easy as taking care of tigers and crystals as they are an offspring that came from different gene pool from all EU. What shrimps do you have anyways?

[Mustafa]

I would say that you might call it nonsense or anything but inbreeding in many generations can actually produce deformed and unhealthy shrimps. Taiwan bees and higher grade crystals are those who suffers more often with this problem as they are highly inbred in order to get their coloration,pattern and even the mutation itself. As such, most of the famous and rare blue bolts gets deformed big carapace. I myself actually have a snow whites who's rostrum is actually short and deformed because the person I bought it from has them from a very small gene pool for about 7 years without introducing new blood. Inbreeding might not be a harm to Opae Ula and other shrimps you own but they can actually harm taiwans and high grade crystals making them unhealthier and can't survive higher pH than 5.6 or whatever the water the breeder keeps them from. My kingkongs can actually thrive in a pH of 6.5-7.2 making them as easy as taking care of tigers and crystals as they are an offspring that came from different gene pool from all EU. What shrimps do you have anyways?

How would you know any of this, especially the part about inbreeding? You barely started keeping shrimp, then read up some nonsense information that has been spread out there by "reputable" internet "breeders" and repeated ad nauseam (and you now do the same), and now you come here and talk like you have any idea what you're talking about. Again...I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but stay grounded until you get some experience to figure out if all that "info" out there is actually true. And...do some research right here in the forum as I have talked about inbreeding a million times and won't repeat it here again just for you.

Deformations in shrimp can and do happen from problems with the tank parameters, *not* from inbreeding. Deformed shrimp usually emerge right after molting. I have yet to see a newly hatched shrimp that is deformed.

Oh..yes...it must only be the shrimp that I have kept and bred that don't seem to have any issues with inbreeding...the problem is that I am probably the person out there who has kept and bred (and in most cases still keeping and breeding) almost all available shrimp varieties/species out there. I was the first one who introduced CRS to the US, the first to introduce super-high grade japanese CRS and CBS (CBS..a name I came up with..along with many other shrimp names) before anyone even ever heard about them here (and in Germany..BTW, I would suggest that you stop talking about the EU as if it's the holy grail of shrimp keeping...I'm *from Germany*...I know what's going on there, and what's not going on there), the first one who brought black tiger shrimp to the US from Germany (picked them up directly from the guy who developed them (Kai Quante))...etc...etc... If you had any experience, you would know that it's nothing special to breed Taiwan bees at a ph of 6.5 - 7.2...what's responsible for people's failures are other things... So, again, do your research before going out there and attracting negative attention the way you have been. This forum is different from others...I don't tolerate it when people come and make it look like they are "experts" by posting something that they "heard" or "read" somewhere. If they preface it with "I read somewhere this and that..is it true?" after having done some research, I can understand...but not the way you have done it so far.

[powerbook]

I have to agree with Mustafa as a doctorate degree holder of biology.
It would be really hard to prove without any scientific evidence that inbreeding itself can cause runt or mutation.
I would be extremely difficult to pinpoint source of genetic mutation as every aquarium use different water chemistry and food quality (contamination of possible mutagenic substances).
I thought red cherry shrimp was generated in captivity and I don't even know if they all came from same ancestors or different sources?
Generally inbreeding can allow expression of potentially bad, recessive genes. But it would be difficult prove....unless all experienced breeders are having a same problems of runt or small size.
It all depends on what kind of selective pressure you give to your shrimp population during breeding I guess.

By the way my one mutant "Rili" shrimp turns out to be a female... so breeding will be slow...( I was hoping it is a male so he can mate with many females..)

[CKarta]

I had heard that RCS populations will show progressively less red colour, going closer to the wild type with generations. Does that have any truth?

[KenCotigirl]

While I no longer keep RCS and did not keep a single population in the same tank for many years I do not believe the answer is black and white. Environmental conditions affect shrimp. Reduced color is a symptom. So is reduced size, breeding and life expectency of young and mature shrimp. Others have removed some shrimp from an old breeding population to new locations and their color and vigor seem to have returned.