Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum

Hello !
As there had been some discuss some days ago about Tiger shrimp - here at http://www.crusta10.de/index.php?sideid=news_de is an red Tiger to look at. Although that shrimp is a little milky in body it seems to have really red stripes and not black stripes.
Is this also an stressed normal Tiger, or really an red striped Tiger (as Chris writes), ?

Greetings, polypterus

I think it's realy red. Just like with bee shrimps and crystal reds i guess. Someone found a few at a store between the normal black striped tiger this week. Think the store is gonna get very busy coming week

As far as I know, so far we haven't got a species called red tiger. A tiger in red represents ill health and it'll die soon.

I know that it's been said that red tigers are usually sick, but if you read the caption above the picture it says that this shrimp was found in a population of a thousand normal tigers (at least that's what I think it said when I translated it ). It is possible that there is a recessive gene that will allow the stripes to be red instead of their normal colour and that this shrimp happens to have two recessive genes. The same thing happened with the crystal reds (close relatives to the tigers) so it's not an obscure idea.

Janis

I know that it's been said that red tigers are usually sick, but if you read the caption above the picture it says that this shrimp was found in a population of a thousand normal tigers (at least that's what I think it said when I translated it ). It is possible that there is a recessive gene that will allow the stripes to be red instead of their normal colour and that this shrimp happens to have two recessive genes. The same thing happened with the crystal reds (close relatives to the tigers) so it's not an obscure idea.

Janis

It would obviously be great if there were actually red tigers just like red bee shrimp (=crystal reds). I don't discount the possibility, but it seems very strange to me that with all these reports of supposedly red Tiger Shrimp occuring all over the place (most of them *are* actually sick and dying shrimp) that nobody has managed to establish a breeding population of red tiger shrimp. It would not be all *that* hard to do...

Chris' picture definitely looks much more convincing than most others I have seen before though...

Here is another pretty convincing photo of a "red tiger" shrimp:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v470/MrTr ... _tiger.jpg

Again...the fact that the shrimp is milky (which usually indicates stress) is a warning sign to me. Still...these two pictures could possibly be red variations of the normally black-striped Tiger Shrimp. However, the vast majority of people who claim to have Red Tiger Shrimp just have a sickly normal Tiger with discolored, barely visible stripes that turned from black to brownish-red such as the one in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=643&highlight=red+tiger

So....buyers beware if you are ever offered a "red tiger" that looks like the one in the above thread!

Mustafa

Now you've got me worried a friend off mine bought a few yesterday and is probably buying more this friday. He already mentionned that the red is not the bright red of the first images. I adviced him to separate the new tigers from his other shrimps.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I have several tigers that exhibit brownish-red stripes and t hey are perfectly healthy. Their exoskeletons are of a normal clearish color. Brownish-red stripes are *not* indicative of illness. Given that the shrimp keeping hobby is still in its infancy, it's hard to truly know every aspect of shrimp health, no matter how much experience you have. We understand very little about these animals and every advice you read or hear should be taken with a grain of salt. Even expert biologists in this field (those that study sealife) are still trying to figure things out, hence, the naming and renaming and reclassification of species from time to time. And, of course, this is the case in all of the field of taxonomy. Most of the stuff you read on this forum or any place else is mostly anecdotal and not scientifically proven.

You may call it "anecdotal" but it's based on experience. And experience is the most important asset we have in this hobby. How do you know your Tiger Shrimp are "perfectly healthy"? Just because it's eating and foraging around does not necessarily mean the shrimp is fine. I've had sick shrimp live on for months before they either died or recovered. Neither does the mere fact that it has been alive for several weeks or months indicate good health. Normal, healthy Tiger Shrimp, of course only in my humble opinion based on experience with them (i.e. seeing hundreds of them), have clear black stripes (some with white stripes next to them) and do not exhibit milky coloration. Any kind of faded striping, especially in connection with faded coloration indicates stress. If your shrimp looks anything like the shrimp in the last link I posted above, then you have a very sickly shrimp at your hands.

Now...what you don't know is that a lot of shrimp species lose coloration when they are under stress, even temporary stress. Their colors fade ever and *never* come back again. This happens to Bee Shrimp, Crystal Reds, Bumblebee Shrimp and also the Tiger shrimp. I've had Crystal Reds that lost almost all their red and only had the white stripes on a clear background. So...even if you have Tiger Shrimp that have faded coloration, as in brownish faded stripes...as opposed to the blood red displayed in the first two pictures above, then that shrimp may be totally fine but it was under some stress of some sort in the past. It is *not* a color variation! That's just fact. I've observed it hundreds of times. People, who do not have enough experience with these animals tend to claim that they have a new color variation at their hands, which is of course nonsense. Again, that does not mean that there aren't color variations, but the vast majority of the cases are not color variations.

And no...science cannot help at all in this case since invertebrate scientists don't sit there and observe their shrimp in captivity. Breeders like me do that. Scientists mostly put their animals in alcohol, where they all look orange losing all original coloration, take them to their labs and look at them under the microscope. So don't wait for scientific proof that shrimp display faded colors and even color changes...it's not going to happen. You and others will figure it out sooner or later as more and more people gain the kind of experience that I had to make all by myself.
So...you have to judge the statements of someone based on the kind of experience they have. That is why I don't give much credence to most people that run around announcing they have a new variety of Tiger Shrimp....they just don't know what they are talking about....yet.

PS: The only way to prove that a new color variety exists is to establish a breeding population. So, until someone can prove that they have a breeding population of Tiger Shrimp with faded brownish stripes I will just stick with my experience and common sense and call these Tigers either stressed, sick or animals who used to be stressed and sick and permenantly lost some of their coloration. Yes, because this hobby is in its infancy there is a lot of misinformation being spread. The best way to counter that is to not say anything unless what is said is based on solid experience instead of assumptions or presumptions.

Did we not have another thread on the sick/stressed out shrimp and their coloration?
That one need to be closed if I remember right.

TKD

Edited to add: Yahoo, I'm a "shrimp now".... 101 posts

As a biologist/scientist, I agree with Mustafa in regards to the subject of the red tiger shrimp is actually not a red tiger shrimp. The shrimps are under stress/dying condition. I bought some tiger shrimps from another dealer before I have bought the red cherry shrimps through Mustafa. All of my tiger shrimps have died. However before they died, I noticed their strips within the tiger shrimp turned from brownish black to browish red/pink and the body of the shrimp is cloudy white. The ghost shrimps that have died from old age and bad quality from Pets'mart turned out to be the same. Of course, they further change their color a little bit more to orange red after they have been dead for a longer period of time!
When animals are under stress condition, they exhibit some sort of behavior. For humans, we have nerve reflexes, making our muscles/cells tightened up from protein unfolding (folding in some cases) within the cells. And in the case of shrimps, they change their color because the protein within the shrimp muscle (contains mostly protein - all animals' dry mass is 70 - 75% protein) denature and fold/unfold and hence slowly changing to white color. Just think of it this way: The color of an raw egg's egg white is clear color, right? What is the color of it after you boil/fry/scramble/or however you cook that egg? Of course the answer is white. Because egg white contains a lot of protein, meanwhile the egg yolk contains all of the fats and cholestrol. And if you cook the egg under very low heat, it will take a while for that whole egg white to turn from clear to white. In the case of shrimp, they can bascially still live, but they will die from stress eventually.
And like Mustafa have stated in regards to breeding a population of red tigers in order to prove it really exist, actually most ecologists/scientists also stated that in order to identify and categorize an organism to a different species, it has to follow at least 3 concepts. One of the concepts is: "Population or groups of population in isolation can interbreed successfully is a species, and produce the same offspring as the parents." I hope this would help support Mustafa's case and others to clear up some misunderstanding of this red tiger shrimps. Unless someone can actually prove that have breed the red tiger shrimp population successfully, then it would be better to leave it like that.

Mustafa wrote:You may call it "anecdotal" but it's based on experience. And experience is the most important asset we have in this hobby. How do you know your Tiger Shrimp are "perfectly healthy"? Just because it's eating and foraging around does not necessarily mean the shrimp is fine. I've had sick shrimp live on for months before they either died or recovered. Neither does the mere fact that it has been alive for several weeks or months indicate good health. Normal, healthy Tiger Shrimp, of course only in my humble opinion based on experience with them (i.e. seeing hundreds of them), have clear black stripes (some with white stripes next to them) and do not exhibit milky coloration. Any kind of faded striping, especially in connection with faded coloration indicates stress. If your shrimp looks anything like the shrimp in the last link I posted above, then you have a very sickly shrimp at your hands.

My tigers are healthy. Their coloration are solid and without change (no fading, as you point out) for many months. The stripes on the animals I have are solid brown-red and black, some with white striping, some without. Their exoskeletons are clear and not milky or opaque, hence, my assessment that they are perfectly healthy. As long as they are eating, I am perfectly happy with them.

Now...what you don't know is that a lot of shrimp species lose coloration when they are under stress, even temporary stress. Their colors fade ever and *never* come back again. This happens to Bee Shrimp, Crystal Reds, Bumblebee Shrimp and also the Tiger shrimp. I've had Crystal Reds that lost almost all their red and only had the white stripes on a clear background. So...even if you have Tiger Shrimp that have faded coloration, as in brownish faded stripes...as opposed to the blood red displayed in the first two pictures above, then that shrimp may be totally fine but it was under some stress of some sort in the past. It is *not* a color variation! That's just fact. I've observed it hundreds of times. People, who do not have enough experience with these animals tend to claim that they have a new color variation at their hands, which is of course nonsense. Again, that does not mean that there aren't color variations, but the vast majority of the cases are not color variations.

I don't disagree with you that shrimp lose some their coloration when they are stressed. I have not witnessed this myself in the stock that I have, which again, attests to their health.

When did I make mention of anything related to a color variation in my reply? I don't have a red tiger nor do I claim to have one. I do know that the shrimp that I have are all wild caught and have varying patterns and colors.

And no...science cannot help at all in this case since invertebrate scientists don't sit there and observe their shrimp in captivity. Breeders like me do that. Scientists mostly put their animals in alcohol, where they all look orange losing all original coloration, take them to their labs and look at them under the microscope. So don't wait for scientific proof that shrimp display faded colors and even color changes...it's not going to happen. You and others will figure it out sooner or later as more and more people gain the kind of experience that I had to make all by myself.
So...you have to judge the statements of someone based on the kind of experience they have. That is why I don't give much credence to most people that run around announcing they have a new variety of Tiger Shrimp....they just don't know what they are talking about....yet.

Again, no claim of having a new variety of shrimp or color variation. Scientists will come up with their findings. And you are absolutely right, scientists won't sit and watch the shrimp breed in captivity, but general laws of genetics via selective breeding do allow for the maintenance of desired traits.

PS: The only way to prove that a new color variety exists is to establish a breeding population. So, until someone can prove that they have a breeding population of Tiger Shrimp with faded brownish stripes I will just stick with my experience and common sense and call these Tigers either stressed, sick or animals who used to be stressed and sick and permenantly lost some of their coloration. Yes, because this hobby is in its infancy there is a lot of misinformation being spread. The best way to counter that is to not say anything unless what is said is based on solid experience instead of assumptions or presumptions.

I made no assumptions or presumptions. I said that advice should be taken with a grain of salt, anecdotal evidence included, since hobbyists from across the globe will have varying experiences. Yes, there will be concensus among commonly kept species, but there are still outliers that no hobbyist can truly account for or reasonably expect. I'm for truth and the spread of good information as much as the next guy. That doesn't mean I will take everything that one says with 100% certainty.

Hey Fugly,

Although I replied to your post to make my points, a lot of my points referred to others' posts in this thread. I was partly replying to your post and partly just generally expounding on the topic of this thread. Hence...a lot of mention of claims of color varitions, which you did not make. Hope this clears things up.

Mustafa

I think the shrimps where stressed, 2 of them turned black the nex morning. The other one (a pregnant female) was hiding so i don't know about her..

Thanks for confirming my point antoinette. The hiding female is most likely not a red tiger either, but also just stressed. These shrimp go through a lot of stress and adverse conditions when imported in tiny little bags with hundreds of other individuals.

Mustafa