New to shrimp

deepdiver · Post by **deepdiver** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:06 am

Hello everyone. I have a couple planted tanks and have never had shrimp in my tanks before. I'm looking to eliminate detritus and some hair algae. I'm getting 15 Red Cherry shrimp in sometime this week. Can u acclimate w/ a slow drip for about an hour like you would for fish? Also I'm using a plant fertilizer that contains 0.0001% Copper, but 0.14% Calcium. Will that small amount of Copper be harmful to my shrimp or will the higher amount of Calcium offset it? Thanks for any help!

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:33 pm

The problem with ferts is they tend to build up over time and kill your shrimp. Copper isn't the only thing to worry about. Plants like iron and shrimp don't. My observation is you need to chose between shrimp and ferts. If you have hair algae, you probably already have too much nitrate and phosphate for cherries.

Amanos do a better job with hair algae, and they are not as picky about water quality,although they still can't stand much as far as ferts go. If you don't feed them fish food, they will do a pretty good job with the algae. Once the algae is gone you should start feeding.

Also keep in mind that you need A LOT of shrimp to make much of a dent in algae.

Raul-7 · Post by **Raul-7** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:57 am

badflash wrote:The problem with ferts is they tend to build up over time and kill your shrimp. Copper isn't the only thing to worry about. Plants like iron and shrimp don't. My observation is you need to chose between shrimp and ferts. If you have hair algae, you probably already have too much nitrate and phosphate for cherries.

Amanos do a better job with hair algae, and they are not as picky about water quality,although they still can't stand much as far as ferts go. If you don't feed them fish food, they will do a pretty good job with the algae. Once the algae is gone you should start feeding.

Also keep in mind that you need A LOT of shrimp to make much of a dent in algae.

Iron is toxic only in high concentrations. I use KNO3 to keep my NO3 at 10-15ppm, Fleet Enema to keep my PO4 at 2ppm and I dose 2mLs every week in my 20G without any ill effects on the Cherry shrimp. Infact they are breeding like crazy and are showing really bright reds. Here's proof:

NO3 and PO4 don't cause algae, it's when you do not have the right balance which causes algae to break out. The point is to give the plants an upperhand to outcompete the algae and you need nutrients for that as algae can survive on minute traces of nutrients while plants can't. Thus algae flourishes.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:35 am

How long have they been breeding like crazy? At the levels you have my cherries stopped showing saddles (I don't see one in your pic) and baby production stopped entirely. Once I got nitrates below 5 and phosphates below 2 they started breeding non-stop.

If the nutrient levels are maintained artificially high, just what are the plants out competing the algae for?

deepdiver · Post by **deepdiver** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:12 am

I just don't understand why some people say to have shrimp only tanks and others say shrimp are hardy. Takashi Amano uses ferts and high Co2, but he also does large water changes. I just don't like the idea of having one aspect of an ecosystem (shrimp) isolated in one tank. With all these differing opinions is it just a matter of trial and error?

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:58 am

Takashi Amano was not breeding shrimp as far as I know. He was keeping Amano shrimp. Keeping shrimp and breeding shrimp are two separate things. Amanos are also more resistant to high levels of phosphates and nitrates than are red cherry shrimp. I know this from personal experience, not from reading other people's posts.

You can and should keep plants and shrimp together. Plants in the wild are not given CO2 injection or added nitrates and phosphates. If you have a proper load of shrimp in your tank, their waste will feed the plants.

Those that add ferts almost always have good success at first, then their shrimp stop producing young, then they start dying one by one. The effect is cumulative.

Raul-7 · Post by **Raul-7** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:06 pm

badflash wrote:How long have they been breeding like crazy? At the levels you have my cherries stopped showing saddles (I don't see one in your pic) and baby production stopped entirely. Once I got nitrates below 5 and phosphates below 2 they started breeding non-stop.

If the nutrient levels are maintained artificially high, just what are the plants out competing the algae for?

Breeding like crazy in that I'm always finding new juveniles in the moss thicket I have for them. Not one week has gone where I haven't witnessed new shrimp the mix of moss and hair algae.

We keep the nutrients in high levels to keep the plants in competition. If you avoid dosing PO4 at all, any minute traces from the food or waste will cause the algae to grow and the plants to stop growing (they need higher levels than algae as they are more complex). Increase the levels and now the plants come into the picture and start competeing with the algae. Still have doubts, ask Tom Barr (he has a PhD is plant physiology). Here's his website http://www.barrreport.com

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:25 pm

I'm glad your shrimp are doing so well. I hope you're right and you can sustain that. As to algae vs. plants, you have it backwards. The reason plants evolved is that they are more adaptable than algae. They can survive in nitrate and phosphate levels that are too low to sustain algae. That is why water changes work to clear out your algae problems.

If you want to get rid of that hair algae, you need to starve it and cut back on the lights. Plants can survive in the dark for a long time, algae can't. Shrimp won't get rid of it, they just keep it cut back. If you feed the shrimp, they won't eat it at all.

Newjohn · Post by **Newjohn** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:30 pm

Raul-7

I would have to agree with badflash.
My Shrimps breeding would slow down when the nitratres and phosphates levels were high.

I am sure Tom Barr knows what he is talking about when it comes to Plants, But, Shrimp are another thing.

There is a difference,
Putting Shrimp in a Planted Tank, or
having Plants in a Shrimp Tank.

John

Shrimp&Snails · Post by **Shrimp&Snails** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:47 pm

Newjohn wrote:There is a difference,
Putting Shrimp in a Planted Tank, or
having Plants in a Shrimp Tank.

John

Very good and totally agree.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:52 pm

I'm not a big believer of academics as authorities. I can show you loads of PhD’s that say that pesticides and nitrate ferts are the way to go. My experience says just the opposite. It works great at first, then fails. It is not sustainable. The ONLY place I use ferts is to grow green water, and it works super. I have to wait until the green water uses up all the nitrates and phosphates before I can use it or the ferts kill my critters. This is experience, not theory.

I'm sure you've all seen this, but here goes anyway.
BS (we all know what BS is)
MS (More of the Same)
PhD (Piled higher and Deeper)