Attempt to Acquire Green Shrimp . . . Fails Miserably

[Mustafa]

You are absolutely right about the cheap price of imported shrimps. They farm-raise shrimps in huge quantity.
I took a trip to Taiwan in Jan/Feb. Here is the retail price I saw in fish shops there:

- Amano: NT$100 for 10 or so (that is about US$3)(the cheapest one was NT$10 a shrimp and buy 10 get 5 free)
- Cherry: NT$100 for 10 or so (again, that is US$3)

That is the retail price. I can not image what is their cost.


In IL/US, with $3, I can buy half of an amano shrimp in PetLand ($4.99 each).

The problem is that shrimp that are not all that easy to breed in captivity like the Amano shrimp are not even farm raised. They occur naturally in Taiwan and are probably collected in huge quantities. Same applies to most imported shrimp, be it from China, India, Indonesia..etc...etc. They are usually wild-caught. That's why places like AAG bother the heck out of me as they don't appreciate what they are getting. The natural populations of these shrimp are continuously depleted (THE reason why I don't sell wild-caught, imported shrimp) and places like AAG kill most of the ones that make it alive to the US by treating them like cheap products...not live beings. Of course many exporters also don't treat the shrimp properly as 50%-100% of shrimp shipped to the US usually arrive dead. That's not the exception, but the rule! Again, I speak from experience here.

I realize that people who trade in animals cannot be "re-educated" overnight to suddenly appreciate the animals and treat them better, but we can all contribute towards creating an awareness about these issues among aquarium hobbyists and the general population, so that one day places like AAG will either have to rethink their methods or go out of business as a more "educated" (about shrimp/fish issues anyway) public won't buy from them. It's a long way to go, but we have to start somewhere. Creating this website to inform the public was a first step and we should all continue to contribute toward this cause from hereon.

[tapmxt1]

Yes, yes, yes!!


That is why I like to buy my collections (shrimps, angelfish, and guppies) from local/US breeders whom I can get the exact water and care information -- and I know how to acclimate and care of the "stuffs" I receive in the boxes

[Kenshin]

I would like to ask what would the Tucson-area Better Business Bureau in Arizona do to stores like AZ Gardens after they receive numerous complaints continously from different customers? I have had several bad experiences with them already and still never get my money back (or store credit) and etc, and from being a forum member here a while now, I have also heard other people with similar experiences. So therefore, is there anyway we can try to make them close down their store or at least change their business practice in order to protect customers. Just a thought!

[Mustafa]

I would like to ask what would the Tucson-area Better Business Bureau in Arizona do to stores like AZ Gardens after they receive numerous complaints continously from different customers? I have had several bad experiences with them already and still never get my money back (or store credit) and etc, and from being a forum member here a while now, I have also heard other people with similar experiences. So therefore, is there anyway we can try to make them close down their store or at least change their business practice in order to protect customers. Just a thought!

The better business bureau is not an enforcement agency. In other words they actually have absolutely no power to do anything. They can just report things and others can read their reports and act accordingly. The only problem is that nowadays not many people really utilize the BBB. So, the best way to "fight back" against outfits with shady business practices is to create public awareness. The idea is that if enough people read about the bad experiences people have had with such a "business" they (hopefully) won't buy from those places. Hence such outfits will be forced to either change their practices or close shop due to dwindling sales. I personally think public forums such as this one are a good place to create such public awareness. Other than that nothing much can be done as there is really not much regulation in the pet industry; in other words any joe bloe who wants to sell animals can do so, even if joe bloe knows nothing about what he's doing.

[miketoe]

That said, perhaps the BBB can still be effective.

For example, in this case, a few days after I had written the original post (which was about two weeks after the incident), I received a phone call from the owner of AAG. He stated that he heard that I was disappointed with my AAG shrimp-ordering experience. He stated that he was an honorable man, and that he wanted to "make it right." He stated that he would be sending me 14 new green shrimp free of charge (and without charging me another $49.40 for shipping!). Sure enough, one week later I received a new order of green shrimp. One shrimp was D.O.A., but this clearly was because it had gotten caught in one of the folds of the plastic bag up near where the bag was crimped shut, not because the shrimp were of inferior quality. And besides, there were still 15 live, vivacious, healthy shrimp in the order (so AAG had actually sent 16 shrimp this time---2 more than what I ordered---which is much nicer than getting fewer shrimp than the quantity ordered!). These shrimp were a world apart from those in my first order. There were no signs this time that the shrimp had been sedated (although, strangely, the photocopied insert describing "Bag Buddies" and the acclimation procedures that it necessitates was once again included in this order and once again states that its content applies to shrimp as well as fish ("Acclimating Your New Shrimp or Fish Arrivals . . ." and "Use a separate bucket for each fish/shrimp type . . ."), even though AAG has twice stated to me that "Bag Buddies" are not used on shrimp and that these inserts were included accidentally!). And, all of the shrimp turned bright green within seconds of removing them from the shipping container, and continue to look bright, healthy, and happy.

So, I must therefore hereby state for the record that AAG has gone over and above to right their wrong with me, and that I cannot fairly continue to foster any bad blood against them now.

But so far as what prompted this ideal response from them---when others have stated that their complaints were ignored---one obvious possibility is the fact that I reported them to the BBB, which is something that I had never done before on any company in my life (which I mention because I have no other experience by which to gauge the effectiveness of filing a complaint with the BBB). But, then again, maybe it had nothing to do with the BBB. Maybe it is just that AAG has realized the error of its past ways and is trying harder now to do the right thing. Or maybe I just got lucky.

Nevertheless, I think the BBB remains a helpful resource, one of which greater use should be made.

For example, when I was looking for another source of live plants (and shrimp too, although this site does not have a very big selection of them) after AAG had wronged me and had not yet righted this wrong, I came upon this site:

http://www.aquariumplants.com/

which talks the good talk:

Live Delivery Guaranteed

NO minimum order!

Unlike most on-line companies, our shopping cart system automatically calculates the shipping immediately. There are NO hidden or added-on shipping charges added after your order is shipped. . . .Unlike most on-line companies, we do not attempt to profit from or mark up shipping costs to our customers. Every item that we sell has been meticulously weighed so the shipping charges are as accurate as humanly possible. . .

We will EARN your business, and we will do anything and everything it takes to keep you as a satisfied return customer.

and even features an image suggesting endorsement by the BBB on every page:




So, I was about to place a huge order with them, but then I decided, what harm would there be in just looking them up on the BBB first, just to be sure? (Again, prior to my issue with AAG, I had never used the BBB before for any reason, so the concept of looking up any company that I might potentially do business with before actually doing that business is a brand new and somewhat strange concept for me (because I guess I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt).) This is what I found:

Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to its failure to discontinue the use of the BBB's federally registered trademark when demands have been made to do so.

This company is displaying the Bureau membership online seal on their website. They are not members nor are they online members of this Better Business Bureau.

Additionally, this company had more than double the number of complaints filed against it than does AAG, more than one of which was "administratively closed," which means that the "BBB determined the company made a reasonable offer to resolve the issues, but the consumer did not accept the offer." In other words, this could mean that the company did not offer to fully refund the money, or to fully replace the dead items with live ones, etc. (But---to be fair---it could also mean that the customer is just being ridiculous in his/her demands for what satisfactory resolution would be in this case. But, then again, I think that if the customer was making a totally outrageous demand, then the BBB would disregard their complaint and not list it here. Therefore, I tend to assume that these are situations in which the company has agreed to give a "store credit" for the unsatisfactory items, but insists that the customer must pay the shipping charges again in order to receive the replacement items, and/or that the company continues to send unsatisfactory items as the replacement items.)

After learning this, I then decided to take a closer look at the site itself, and I noticed that every instance of the statement "Live Delivery Guaranteed" that appears on the site is followed by an asterisk ("Live Delivery Guaranteed*"), and yet on every page where this exists, there is no footnote at all (such as the use of an asterisk is normally accompanied by). So, I searched the site for the disclaimer that this asterisk should point to, and I found this:

Note: we guarantee live delivery ONLY on "overnight" shipments. ...WE ONLY GUARANTEE LIVE DELIVERY ON "OVERNIGHT" deliveries. We guarantee that you will receive your plants in perfect condition. If there is ever a problem, which is extremely rare, you will be sent a prepaid shipping label to return the damaged items, and your plants will be replaced...once again, only on "overnight" shipments.

I guess this sounds somewhat acceptable (the "prepaid shipping label" in particular sounds like the right thing to do)---although, for the record, I find it strange that we constantly find disclaimers like this among these "indie" sites/shops when somehow businesses like LiveAquaria.com not only manage to be able to guarantee the live arrival of their plants (even though they are shipped merely express and NOT overnight!) but on top of that proceed to guarantee that these plants will stay alive for AT LEAST TWO WEEKS after arrival!!! Not only is it apparently impossible for an "indie" site/shop like AquariumPlants.com to offer anything close to the robustness of such a guarantee, but, upon digging even further in the fine print on their site, I then found the following under their "Terms and Conditions":

Warranty Disclaimer
This site and the materials and products on this site are provided "as is" and without warranties of any kind, whether express or implied. To the fullest extent permissible pursuant to applicable law, AquariumPlants.com disclaims all warranties, express or implied, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability . . .

This legalese clearly negates the above (already heavily-qualified) live delivery guarantee and gets them totally off the hook as far as having any obligation whatsoever to their customers!!!

All of which leads to the question, What is up with all of the liars, hustlers, and shysters in the pet trade?! Shouldn't all these riffraff be selling used cars, or second mortgages, or flood insurance, or something like that?! Why, of all things, do they choose FISH (AND SHRIMP) as the medium through which they will rip off the rest of the world???

[badflash]

AAG ripped me off and threatened me after I told them of my troubles with their DOA shrimp. You should NEVER have to resort to an outside agency or public exposure to get your problem handled. These folks don't deserve anyting but chapter 11, and only then because it is the law. Villagers with torches and pitchforks would be more appropriate.

[carbon etc]

I had made a $70 order with AAG, and then an hour later happened to come upon this thread, which made me start looking for posts about AAG on other shrimp forums as well. After reading it all I cancelled my order. In the interest of transparency, I'll post my cancellation email and their response to me.

I would like to cancel the order shown below. Please do not charge my credit card... I will dispute it.

After making my order I ran across a number of complaints about your store online (this being a good example: viewtopic.php?t=1574), and would like to avoid the problems mentioned. Even if there's a good chance the order will go smoothly it's not worth it to me.

I'm not sending this information to give you a hard time... I would just like to pass on some criticism that can be taken constructively (for example, not using Bag Buddies in shrimp shipments) so hobbyists like me may be able to have a better source for shrimp in the future.

Thank you for your attention to this. I'm sorry our transaction won't work out.

I am sorry that we will not be able to help you out at this time.
Your order has been deleted and you were not charged for the order. It
is true that not everyone has walked away happy from us, but the
majority of those people are ones who have not called us about the
problems they have had. The qouted experience is a very good example,
yes Mike was very upset and didn't want anything to do with our company,
but after calling we have taken care of him. We do not use the bag
buddies with our shrimp or any other animals for that matter.

Hopefully we will be able to help you out with any of your needs in the
future.

I hope nobody minds that AAG read what's been posted in this thread, but it's probably better for everyone in the end.

It's a shame, I really wanted their pearl shrimp, and have found no other sources for them.

[miketoe]

I was not aware that AAG had read my original post in which I detailed my attempt to purchase green shrimp from them. However, this statement by them . . .

The qouted experience is a very good example, yes Mike was very upset and didn't want anything to do with our company, but after calling we have taken care of him.

. . . gives credence to the second of my three theories (from my post above) as to why AAG went over and above to resolve the matter with me (which is, "Maybe it is just that AAG has realized the error of its past ways and is trying harder now to do the right thing.")

It is too bad that in light of my revelation that AAG resolved the matter with me and re-sent good quality shrimp to me, and that they also mentioned this in their e-mail to you, that you did not proceed to place your order. Simply because it would have been interesting to see if you too got great shrimp, and I expect that you would have, given that they acknowledged my incident to you (instead of, for example, denying that it ever happened). However, I can understand your reservations, given all of the stories of people who got ripped off without any resolution. (Badflash's story, above, that he was threatened by AAG, is especially shocking and curious, and I would love to hear the specifics of this.) But, then again, merely the fact that AAG was willing to proceed to cancel your order (which they probably did not have to do, since you had already, by placing your order, agreed to all terms and conditions and essentially entered a legal contract with them) seems to me like they may now be, for whatever reason, trying to do the right thing, maybe?

[badflash]

You can read my 1st post about what I published here. Search out "Petshrimp vs. AzGardens".

Here is my exchange with them at that time. The only email I sent (included below) promted this response:

Dear Mr. Rowland

This was very easy to fix, and your harsh email is not very nice and totally uncalled for. You have not even given us a chance to fix this simple problem and are already talking about defamation of character. NO ONE should have any problem with us as we are extremely honorable and generous when it comes to doa shipments.

You do not seem very fair to us. In fact, you said that ALL but 1 came in alive, that's pretty good odds, so actually we did our part as promised. Why did they die after 1 day? Who knows. I assure you it was not something intentional on our part. Why did the other company's shrimp not die? Who knows. Maybe they grow their shrimp in water conditions more similar to yours? Regardless, your email was nasty and undeserving. You need to watch what you say on the internet. Defamation of character is illegal. If you ordered from us via shopping cart, you had to agree to our ordering guidelines page. (you cannot even order from us until you check the box that says that you have read, understood, and agreed to those guidelines.) We also explain our policy on doa's very clearly. Doa's are a normal part of this business and nothing out of the ordinary. We also explain this at our site as well.

Because you might have had the unfortunate event of doa's does not mean that those guidelines do not apply to you. We would be more than willing to work with you or any other person that might be having similar losses. We have always, and will always, take care of our customers. We will NOT tolerate folks that are unreasonable or threatening. I don't think that one experience of dead shrimp deserves a "bad company" mark, you just might have gotten lucky this time with the other company.

http://azgardens.com/neworderinguidelines2.php

Think before you write hurtful emails.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Rowland
To: Arizona Aquatic Gardens
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Order Receipt


Just to let you know, I am dissatisfied with your service and will not order from you again. Given the opportunity I will warn others about you. While your shrimp arrived alive, all but one was dead within 24 hours. Other shrimp of the same species purchased from another source had no problem in this tank. They were added after yours were dead.

Searching other shrimp forums, I find that my situation is not unique. Those that paid for shrimp delivered under warranty got dead shrimp delivered, so I do not consider this an option.

[miketoe]

When I first wrote the original post detailing the order that I had placed with AAG (and filed a complaint against them with the BBB), I did so because I had finally concluded that AAG were the worst kind of shameless unapologetic hustlers (which conclusion was based on the fact that I had just wasted $86.46 and got absolutely nothing in return for it but heartache, had assumed that their lack of response to my (equally irate as badflash's) "loss report" e-mail indicated that they intended to do nothing about it, and also that I then learned that I was not the first and only AAG customer to have experienced this).

However, when the owner subsequently called me to discuss my issue and then went over and above to resolve the matter, I started to wonder if I had maybe judged too quickly.

Now, after reading his response to your (badflash's) "loss report," I believe that I had, and that I was wrong about AAG:

What's surprising about AAG's response to your e-mail is how emotional it is. It is as if he truly cannot fathom why you are so upset, thinks that your being so upset is unfair, and is truly hurt by your words. I am now really starting to think that AAG does not mean to intentionally rip people off, but rather that they really do believe their own rhetoric (about DOAs being normal, etc.), and I actually feel kind of bad for him now, because I think that it really all boils down to a simple but fundamental difference of opinion about what is a merchantable live shrimp.

Now, since AAG went over and above to resolve my issue, I do not want to go off into another diatribe against them regarding how justifiable it is that you were as upset as you were by what happened, how outrageous it is that they should think otherwise, how misguided it is to believe that DOAs should be expected, etc.

Instead, I will just say this:

LiveAquaria.com, in spite of the fact that it shows either the wrong photo, or uses the wrong scientific name, for some of the species that it sells, and publishes care information that is often profoundly wrong, and doesn't have the greatest selection, and doesn't have the greatest prices, etc., does manage to get exactly right the one thing that counts the most: they guarantee the live delivery of their animals, AND THEY ADDITIONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THOSE SAME ANIMALS WILL REMAIN ALIVE FOR AT LEAST 14 MORE DAYS, NO MATTER WHAT!!!! It is true that they do not stock green shrimp, but they do stock two other Cardinia species (by which I mean to point out that they therefore stock two shrimp species that are just as sensitive/volatile), as well as my beloved "Atyopsis moluccensis" (which are probably just as sensitive/volatile as any Cardinia shrimp), and yet, not only do they not state that DOAs are "normal" for these species, they proceed to GUARANTEE that there will be none! And not only do they guarantee that there will be no DOAs, but they proceed to further guarantee that these animals WILL REMAIN ALIVE FOR AT LEAST 14 MORE DAYS!!!! Without even asking about your water chemistry first!!! How is it that LiveAquaria.com is able to make these guarantees, while other businesses claim that DOAs are normal and/or promise only live arrival but make no warranties beyond the moment of arrival? LiveAquaria isn't performing miracles, they aren't in possession of "magic shrimp potion," rather, it's just a normal day at the office for them. (And they aren't the only ones: the beautiful state of Arizona's own PetSmart also guarantees the life of every aquatic animal that it sells for 14 days after purchase.) And LiveAquaria manages to do all this while still maintaining competitive prices: their bulk-quantity Caridina japonica price is only $1.20 more per shrimp than AAG's price---which is still far less than what most LFSs sell them for---and LiveAquaria's overnight shipping and handling charges, when one includes AAG's "Box/Handling Fee", are a profound $19.41 LESS than AAG's!!!

Again, I do not mean to attack AAG, and I feel that I have utterly no right to do so now that they have corrected the bad experience that I had with them. Nor do I mean to promote or endorse LiveAquaria. I mean simply to make the point that, if LiveAquaria can make such a robust and risk-reducing guarantee on all of the animals that it sells, then anyone in the trade can. And they should.

[CEF]

I had two orders with DOA's come from Arizona aqua gardens (AAG) and they did reship both times. The first order had a couple of dead olive nerites, so i called them and they did reship. I have more than half of the nerites still grazing and that's been 2 years.

My second order was shrimp and the success was abysmal. The order came in about 60% dead, and the remaining 40% died within two days. So i called them to address that issue, and the cost of shipping. An overnight package had cost $60 and that really bothered me as you can imagine. One guy answered the phone and checked the actual shipping cost, and said it was $60. I couldn't really argue that point further, and I did verify with FedEx that their overnight rate was appropriate. So then we got into shrimp and I explained that only 1 shrimp survived 48h. They reshipped and I enjoyed a higher survival rate, but the more exotic purchases died within a week the only thing that was able to hang on were some amanos, they did make an effort to package some pregnant shrimp in too. I think i got 3 carrying eggs, and 1 malayan dropped 11 shrimplets and they have survived.

I actually think their customer service on the phone is really good, they ate a $60 shipping fee, and resolved the issue. I felt that calling them 10 days later and complaining again had reached that ambiguous point where it could be my fault or their product. If i buy shrimp from my LFS, usually 10 days is the point where i learn if i got lemons that wont acclaimate.
Their shipment also introduced hydra and ostracods into my tanks.

Mustafa's neocardina blue's have been here a week, cost me ~1/6th the shipping cost, and are still 100% survival.

[badflash]

I have a problem with paying twice as much for shipping as for shrimp, and having them all die within 24 hours. I wonder what your outcome would have been had this post not made this issue public. Their policy is not to pay for the shipping, so your situation was a special case. They surely didn't make that offer with me.

[Neonshrimp]

Thanks for posting all of your experiences and allowing me to make an informed choice. I have also seen the company's web site and took their work for face value. I also found their pictures and variety if items to be attractive. So I am greatful to view both sides before I make a decision on where to buy.

[Ecir]

Thanks for posting all of your experiences and allowing me to make an informed choice. I have also seen the company's web site and took their work for face value. I also found their pictures and variety if items to be attractive. So I am greatful to view both sides before I make a decision on where to buy.

Seeing as you live in the States you have the option of buying from Mustafa which if you've read the feedback is nothing short of glowing, those of us who are foreigners don't have that luxury

[carbon etc]

A little more customer feedback...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/gener ... arden.html