Sad weekend

[amanda_h]

Hee. Still a little vague, Mustafa. Is it because of the nitrates?

[Mustafa]

Or is it the nitrates present as a result of the excess food?

How was my answer to the above question vague? It's the excess food that not only (eventually) causes higher nitrates but also higher phosphate levels (which is also not all that good for the shrimp).

[amanda_h]

Sorry Mustafa, I thought it it still could have referred to them eating too much. At least the way I read it...

[John P.]

As Brad already said, you really want to keep ammonia and nitrite at 0. Even nitrate at higher concentrations (i.e. you fed too much) can kill shrimp. Some shrimp are more sensitive than others. Crystal Reds, Bumblebees start dropping like flies at high nitrites, where Red Cherries and most indian algae eating shrimp still hang on. You don't want it to come to that, though.

And as Amanda suggested, plants are really needed if your population of shrimp gets really large. I have some tanks that have their bottoms completely covered with Java Moss. It does the job of keeping all water parameters perfect and it provides food (algae and other microorganisms grow on the Java Moss) for the shrimp.

I suggest using Seachem Prime to treat the water, too, as it renders ammonia & nitrates harmless to aquatic life.

[Bradimus]

I suggest using Seachem Prime to treat the water, too, as it renders ammonia & nitrates harmless to aquatic life.

Prime will bind ammonia until it can be used by bacteria. SeaChem states that a mega-dose can be used to bind nitrItes in an emergancy (read: using this much Prime is not good for your animals, but it is better than letting them swim in the nitrItes) Prime has no effect on nitrAtes.

[amanda_h]

This is from the Seachem website...

Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

[Bradimus]

Read the entire website:

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

1. SeaChem, which employs some talented chemists, can not identify the mechanism by which nitrates are detoxified. This suggests the possibility that there is no mechanism and that the perceived benefit is not present.
   Further, the suggested possible mechanisms do not make sense. Nitrates will only be reduced by the biological filter in anaerobic conditions. It is doubtful that Prime creates these. If the nitrate is converted to free nitrogen, the resulting gas would be easily detected. If this were truely the mechanism, SeaChem's chemists would be embarrassed to not have identified it. It is also unlikely that the nitrate is converted into some benign organic compound. Such reactions usually require the input of some energy. Does Prime provide this energy? If not, from where does it come? And why can we not detect this new compound in the water?
2. You will note that SeaChem always states that Prime "detoxif[ies] nitrite and nitrate". They never state that Prime detoxifies nitrate. This leaves open the possibility that the perceived benefit is due to the binding of the far more toxic nitrite.
3. SeaChem states that all of the evidence of Prime's effect on nitrates comes from customer experience. This evidence is, at best, antidotal. Despite SeaChem's closing statement, this is not proof. Again, I suggest that customers saw a benefit because the nitrite was bound, not because the nitrate was.
4. You will also note that the claims of detoxifying nitrate do not appear in the directions for the use of Prime. This is telling and suggests that SeaChem is not convinced of Prime's abilities to detoxify nitrates.
5. Even if Prime does detoxify nitrate, SeaChem acknowledges that it requires a massive dose of Prime. At these dosing levels, it is likely that Prime will have bound nearly all the electrolytes in the water as well.

Given these facts, I will modify my statement to be that there is no scientific evidence that Prime has any effect on nitrates.

[Mustafa]

Sorry Mustafa, I thought it it still could have referred to them eating too much. At least the way I read it...

That's ok. No need to apologize.

[amanda_h]

...Given these facts, I will modify my statement to be that there is no scientific evidence that Prime has any effect on nitrates.

Fair 'nuff.

I've never really paid attention to that aspect of Prime -- I've got the opposite problem in that I have to add nitrate for my plants.

[scrimp]

Fair 'nuff. I've never really paid attention to that aspect of Prime -- I've got the opposite problem in that I have to add nitrate for my plants.

You and me both!