Difference between patzuarensis and shufeldtii

bjar · Post by **bjar** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:23 am

What are difference between C.patzuarensis and C.shufeldtii when it comes to behavor?

FISH WORLD ERIE · Post by **FISH WORLD ERIE** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:07 pm

I did not notice much difference between the 2 species. But I only kept C.patzuarensis for 4 months and never bred them.

Jason

bjar · Post by **bjar** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:35 pm

Any special reason you did not keep the patzuarensis? I had gotten the impression that maybe shufeldtii is more shy in behavior?

FISH WORLD ERIE · Post by **FISH WORLD ERIE** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:54 pm

I did not get rid of them. I had 3 pairs of the C. patzuarensis and they all died. The last pair made it to 4 months. No reason that I noticed. I think that they are just more touchy than the shuffeldtii. My observation of their behavior was about the same. My Shuffeldtii are not that shy. Espescially in the nicer planted tanks I keep them in. They move about freely day or night. I think that the more comfortable they feel the more likely they are to be more outgoing.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:15 pm

I have both the "wilds" I got from Mustafa and Frank's and the "blues" I got from Erie. The blues are far more outgoing and a much more social cray than the "wilds". It could be that like dogs, the gene for coloration is associated with the gene for open behavior. It sort of make sense in an odd sort of way.

If you have odd ball coloration you'd be snapped up in the wild in a heartbeat. If it was asscoated with exibitionism, who would know?

There is a well documented case of domestic foxes in russia. They selected for tame domestic behavior. They were being raised for their pelts. After only a few generations the tame foxes ended up with the common pattern of domestic dogs, and worthless for pelts, unless you like the 101 dalmations look.

ToddnBecka · Post by **ToddnBecka** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:46 pm

I had 3 pairs of the C. patzuarensis and they all died. The last pair made it to 4 months.

Out of curiosity, were they the orange morph, imported from Germany? I have been reading here and there that the strain has become "weak" from so many generations of inbreeding.
I would presume "weak" would mean they are less adaptable to different water conditions? Possibly a shorter life span, or just generally more delicate?

milalic · Post by **milalic** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:54 pm

ToddnBecka wrote:
I had 3 pairs of the C. patzuarensis and they all died. The last pair made it to 4 months.
Out of curiosity, were they the orange morph, imported from Germany? I have been reading here and there that the strain has become "weak" from so many generations of inbreeding.
I would presume "weak" would mean they are less adaptable to different water conditions? Possibly a shorter life span, or just generally more delicate?

Is there any studies about inbreeding in crays and how they might weaken a species? I have heard people introducing wild ones or this and that to strengthen the gene pool. Do you think this is true? Mine are going strong. They are reaching secual maturity and they are more picky about breeding that other crays.

-Pedro

FISH WORLD ERIE · Post by **FISH WORLD ERIE** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:09 pm

Mine were orange crays bought in the USA off aquabid. I think the oranges overall are a weak breed. Otherwise they would be spread through the USA at alot faster pace. The wild ones or natural form seem to be much stronger. Maybe the work people are doing by breeding the orange back to wild will actually work and strengthen the this morph. Time will tell. I will wait before purchasing oranges again. I like throwing money away but not all the time.

Jason

milalic · Post by **milalic** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Well, I have some wild ones and they have not breed at all.
I think it has to do more with the species been difficult to breed and/or more sensitive than other dwarf crays.
Maybe they are the CRS of dwarf crays...

FISH WORLD ERIE · Post by **FISH WORLD ERIE** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:57 pm

Maybe

FISH WORLD ERIE · Post by **FISH WORLD ERIE** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:58 pm

Come to think of it I did not do well with the crs either. They only lasted a month.

ToddnBecka · Post by **ToddnBecka** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:32 pm

Possibly something in your water that some species are more sensitive to? I've experienced similar things with fish, some thrived, some died for no apparent reason...

zwergkrebszuechter · Post by **zwergkrebszuechter** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:39 am

I also think it is more the species that is important than any inbreeding effects. My Procambarus toltecae are very sensitive for example. Under conditions most other Procambarus would thrive in these could die because they do not like the conditions. They need good water quality, high oxygen and few bacteria in the water, but detrius to eat.

The same is true for many Cambarrellus species I think. There are mysterious deaths reported for Cambarellus patzcuarensis in Germany, too. And no one knows why that happens. They just seem not to like certain things. I tried once to find out why, but got almost no feedbacks for my posts on several boards.

I bred wild type crayfish in my lines for other reasons. The variety in color is very low in most orange strains. Same thing as someone just wrote here in a different topic for the "fox domestication experiment" in Russia. The genes for pattern and color intensitiy are the same for orange and wild type crayfish, only one gene decides whether the crayfish is brown or orange. I am about to breed dark orange /red crayfish, light orange crayfish, and there are also differences in pattern.

I selected a dark morph almost black out of the wild type. It gets darker with every generation I select for color.
That one is my darkest breeder female currently:

It is berried right now, I am really curious for the color of the youngs.

For me Cambarellus patzcuarensis and indeed all Cambarellus do breed very well. I have more problems with those bee shrimp and especially those higher grade CRS. But after one or two generations in my tanks those I bred myself usually are better colored and breed better. They just adapt to my condinitions it seems.[/img]

bjar · Post by **bjar** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:52 am

I have had C.paztuarensis for maybe six months now and had both problem and sucses I started with six females carrying the orange gene
and tree orange males ,of thouse I have all males left but only one female
left.The females have carried eggs several times but not a single on have hathed .I think it is due to the orange males being steril .On the other hand I have some dark wild coloured ones with have produced a couple
of suces full clutches ,and there have been no problem with the offspring.

Is there any studies about inbreeding in crays and how they might weaken a species? I have heard people introducing wild ones or this and that to strengthen the gene pool. Do you think this is true? Mine are going strong. They are reaching secual maturity and they are more picky about breeding that other crays

Actually all life forms suffer when you do inbreeding even plants.

zwergkrebszuechter · Post by **zwergkrebszuechter** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:07 am

bjar wrote:
Actually all life forms suffer when you do inbreeding even plants.

that is not completely true. There are many examples where inbreeding has no obvious negative results. 'The only important thing is the genes. Inbreeding only gives a individuum a higher chance of having some defects in both copies of its genes. If one selects for these genes to be ok, when inbreeding you can even get a more healthy strain. Of course that is not an easy thing to do. But in general I would not say that inbreeding always has to have negative effects.

There is one more thing to watch: All mexican Cambarellus, including C. patzcuarensis, montezumae, zempoalensis and chapalanus were imported a long time ago and their origin cannot be traced back to the import without any gaps. As these species do interbreed, one cannot be completely sure, if they really are what we think and if they are genetically pure. Maybe all mexican Cambarellus in the hobby including the oranges are hybrids. If they are even real species and not just location types! The differences are few and maybe they get restructured when there is a review. With standards used by scientist in some other countries it would be no problem to split our Astacus astacus in half a dozen different species.

I have never had any steril patzcuarensis. Maybe they were in form 2 when the females were ready or disturbed while mating etc.