Setting up CRS tank

Post by **Mustafa** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:57 am

Hold on....are you using your RO water before using the acid? I'm asking because you said that your RO water comes out at PH 7.4. If you don't use the RO water, not only will it take literally forever to lower your ph (and TONS of acid), but your conductivity will also go up tremendously. Remember, that these species live in extremely low conductivity water in their natural habitats. The "softer" your water is, the less acid you need.

Don't worry about using straight RO water with these species. As long as it's really RO water and not RO-DI, they will be fine. My tap water comes out with a conductivity of about 75-80 microsiemens/cm (which translates to about 40-45 ppm TDS), which is very close to the conductivity to straight RO water, especially if your RO water is produced from very "hard" tap water. Just a pointer.

So, if you are already using RO water...then keep adding the acid until the ph does not rebound to the original value. After that add a little bit at a time to lower the ph to your desired level. It might take a day or two depending on how much residual alkalinity is still left in your RO water. If the ph keeps rebounding then you have to figure out if you have anything made out of calcium-carbonate in your tank.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:44 am

The tank is filled with RO+DI water. Only other thing in there is the Eco complete. I did add 1/2 the normal amount of Seachem Equilibrium to the water when I first set it up, I was trying to basically mimic what user milalic was doing.

If you are saying I can just disable the DI part and not have to add anything else I will just run to the hardware store and get something to bypass that part of my unit.

Post by **Mustafa** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:48 am

I don't know what exactly is in seachem equilibrium, but I am guessing that there are carbonates and bicarbonates in there. There could be quite a bit of that in there. You should get a conductivity meter (in the long run) and measure your water. At this point, using just RO (without the DI) is probably your best option. Your RO water will have most of the trace elements that your tap water already has...just in much smaller amounts.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:16 am

pH 7.8 after work yesterday.
6 drops
pH 7.4 1 hour later

pH 7.6 2 hours later
6 drops
pH 6.8

This morning, 7.5

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:35 am

Looks like the acid is slowly reacting with whatever carbonates are in your water causing the downward trend in your ph despite the bouncebacks.

YuccaPatrol · Post by **YuccaPatrol** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:21 pm

Seachem Equilibrium contents:

Guaranteed Analysis (Amounts per 1 g)
Soluble Potassium (K20)
23.0%
Calcium (Ca)
8.06%
Magnesium (Mg)
2.41%
Soluble Iron (Fe)
0.11%
Soluble Manganese (Mn)
0.06%

Derived from: potassium sulfate, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, ferric sulfate, manganese sulfate.

I would say to stop using the stuff for a soft water acidic tank because this is a product specifically made for raising general hardness. If you do use it to add some mineral content to RO/DI water, I would use only a very tiny amount.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:21 pm

It took me almost 2 weeks with several water changes to get my tank to settle down. As the acid reacts with stuff the conductivity and pH goes up, so water changes with R/O water are needed.

Be very sure you don't have rocks, ornaments or gravel that is reactive or you'll never get it to settle down.

As long as the pH is on a downward trend, you'll finally get there.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:07 am

Getting closer... I think if I would have used more drops right away it would have been better, instead of 5 I started doing 10 or 20 and it is not rebounding as fast.

pH 7.3
20 drops
pH 6.6 @ 1 hour
pH 7.1 @ 12 hours
10 drops
pH 6.5 @ 1 hour
pH 6.9 @ 12 hours

I can't say enough about the Hanna pHep4 meter. It is definately a must have item. Not sure if I want to get a TDS meter yet. The Hanna TDS1 is around $20 shipped but I don't see any comments saying it is good or bad.

Post by **Mustafa** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:32 am

I would recommend the TDS5...yes..it's more expensive but the electrode is of a much higher quality. For a similar reason I recommend phep5 instead of phep4...the price difference is not that big but the phep5 is much more accurate. The phep4 will do a pretty good job though.

You have added *a lot* of acid to your water already...I bet your TDS values are going to be over the roof. The seachem equilibrium did not help in that regard either. As a general rule I would not start the acid method unless my water already has a low TDS value...somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-100 microsiemens/cm (= about 40-60 ppm TDS). That's pretty close to RO water.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:40 am

I am doing a 25% water change every day with RO+DI water to hopefully combat the TDS increases. Once I get the pH stabilized I will continue to do them daily for a while to hopefully bring it down.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:57 pm

To update, I am still in a heated battle with my pH. Every day I put 20 drops of muriatic acid in and 24 hours later I am back at 7.1-7.2.

After looking around I'm pretty sure that it is the Eco-Complete. I have found dozens of threads on plantedtank saying the same thing. Oops, should have paid just a little more for AquaSoil. The Eco-Complete website says "Nitrate and carbonate free – will not increase pH or carbonate hardness in the long term." So I'm wondering what "long term" means, I will send them an email.

So instead of using a ton of acid I will just be doing 50% water changes for a while and stir up the substrate.

Neonshrimp · Post by **Neonshrimp** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:21 pm

Hi argblarg,

Sorry to hear about the continued problem you are having. Keep using R/O water for the water changes since it has a lower pH. Best wishes in your attempt to dilute the effects of your substrate. Please keep us updated.

Thanks.

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:00 am

I talked to someone at Carib Sea who makes Eco-Complete, they had me stop doing anything to the tank for a week to see what the pH ended up at. It was at 7.9 and there was a really nasty white film covering the top of the tank. So apparently I got a bag contaminated with something.

I am getting 2 replacement bags and now have to look forward to breaking the tank down and starting over.

I am thinking about replacing my Hydro V sponge as a prefilter with a Hydro III since it is much smaller. Does anyone know if the connected tube on these are the same (1")?

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:59 am

Whew... I finally got my replacement Eco-Complete and switched it all out. After that much hassle I should have just gone with the pea gravel in the first place.

Got a used TDS meter (Milwaukee A97) for pretty cheap and it seems to work just fine. I added some java moss and a wierd piece of driftwood while the tank finishes cycling. Unfortunately, Winter just started apparently this week, it was 60 degrees every day now there is a high of 35 for the entire next week. I wonder if anyone will ship shrimp in this temperature?

I also replaced my Hydro V prefilter sponge with a Hydro III. It is like 1/3 the size and looks like it is fine enough to keep anything from being sucked into the Eheim 2213.

Current tank params:
pH 6.8
TDS 160 (And going down with every RO water change)
Ammonia .25

argblarg · Post by **argblarg** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:05 am

Oh, I also got a ton of oak leaves and I'm going to soak a bunch to put in the tank too. Once my ammonia is gone I will be adding some Cherry shrimp test subjects to make sure the coast is clear while I find someone to sell me Crystals.