Red Cherries fighting?

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:48 am

Hello, I’ve kept small amounts of shrimp for several years in my community fish tanks, but have no experience with larger groups in a dedicated shrimp tank. This is a great site, and I’ve learned so much since I finally discovered it a few months ago. I’ve now got about thirty Red Cherry shrimp in a ten gallon tank, along with a pair of Amanos and a trio of ghosts. I think I’ll transfer the ghosts out to a different tank just to be safe, but I’d like to leave the Amanos there, at least for now.

I’ve only had the cherries for about a week and a half, but have spent hours on end watching them. About three days ago, they started frequently fighting with each other, and yesterday I found a dead one. Usually they’re fighting at feeding time over a piece of food, although sometimes they just bump into each other and start wrestling out of the blue. The amanos and ghosts remain calm, even during feeding (they get excited, but not violently so). The only thing I’ve changed has been their lighting, but it wasn’t a very dramatic change; I believe they’re both nearly the same wattage. I went from a fluorescent tube that had produced a very white light to one that produces rather purple (maybe a bit dimmer) light (the cherries look amazing under the purple btw). Water changes are around 25% weekly (usually on Wednesday), and their “new” water has been aged for a week in a large 12 gallon pail that has filter sponge material soaking in it to grow assorted micro-organisms on. When I do a water change, their new water comes from this pail, and then I top off the pail with treated water, and maybe a quart or two of old tank water for nutrients. The sponges get rotated through the tank as well. I just let them float in the shrimp tank, and the shrimp love it, they swarm all over them and graze. After a few days when they’re pretty much ignoring the sponge again, I toss it back in the pail for the micro-organism population to replenish itself, and give them a new sponge. I’ve also got a few small chunks of natural sea sponge sitting on the bottom, some fake plants, and a bit of Java moss.

I feed the shrimp assorted fish food flakes, crushed up into smaller flakes, and they seem to eat quite a lot. More than I would expect actually, which makes me worry that their tank is lacking in aufwuchs. The substrate is black sand, and any uneaten food is easy to spot. It never sits for more than a minute or two before it is spotted and gobbled up, and most pieces don’t even make it to the floor, so I don’t think I’m over feeding. Their waste is also clearly evident all over the tank floor, and I get a fair amount of debris when I vacuum during water changes.

When I discovered the dead one, I tested for ammonia and nitrates, but neither was present in any measurable amount. Temperature is at 73 degrees, and our water is hard and alkaline, (though I have no actual numbers at the moment). I’ve heard algae has a harder time growing under these conditions, and indeed I’ve never had algae problems in any of my tanks, even when there aren’t shrimp present. The Java moss is only as old as my shrimp, but it appears to be doing fine. I’ve got a jar full of dirty tank water and some fake plants and ornaments sitting outside right now to try and cultivate some more algae for them to graze on. I’m still worried they may not be getting the right food. Maybe it took the first week to decimate the existing food sources in the tank, and that’s why they’re acting aggressive only now? Any additional ideas on introducing more food sources? I’m wondering about aeration also, how much oxygen will the biological activity consume? I’ve got an external eheim canister with a fine sponge pre-filter on the inlet. The outlet dumps into an Eclipse filtration system (which has a broken pump) where it flows through a bunch of additional filter floss and ultimately through a biowheel. Am I doing more harm than good with my excessive filtration? Most of the mechanical filtration is accomplished by the pre-filter, which gets cleaned weekly.

Thanks for any input,
David

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:07 pm

Ok, my post is rather long and wordy so I thought I'd summarize:

My red cherries are very competitive and often witnessed fighting over food, or just plain fighting. I had a recent death which may be related and I'm concerned.

Maybe somebody has experienced the same behaviour and can comment or suggest possible causes? My Amano and ghost shrimp are very friendly with each other, and usually stick together. These are the first cherries I've kept.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:34 pm

I have never observed anything close to this behavior...

The dead shrimp could be coincidental. You're sure it wasn't a molt?

Can you describe how they fight?

Welcome to the forum.

-John

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:21 pm

Yes, this behavior is very unusual. I've never seen cheries agressive enough to harm each other.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:49 pm

I can't be positive they actually hurt each other physically, they seem to lack the ability to do so? But I think they may be harassing each other, os simply exhibiting stress or something. The single dead shrimp could easily be coincidental, but their behaviour just seems so strange it has me concerned. Basically, they just grab at each other a whole bunch, and since they're facing each other, it resembles the comic image of two sarcastically queer people slapping at each other; which doesn't really accomplish much, since they don't even have pincers, but it's not very friendly looking. This usually lasts maybe threee or four seconds, which doesn't sound like a long time, but all the other shrimp I've kept tend to move on almost instantaneously when they accidentally get tangled with another.
And unfortunately, it wasn't a molt, I've come across plenty of molts since I got the cherries, (they've doubled in size in ten days!). They seem to be eating well, and obviously they're growing well too...

When I got home from work today I was watching them for about half an hour and they were acting peaceful again; even when I fed them, they were fairly polite. The strange thing though is that my other shrimp seem perfectly happy? My amanos are close to three years in that tank, with no erratic behaviour to speak of - except when they try to swim through the java moss too quickly

I was originally concerned they weren't getting the proper variety or volume of food, but my attentions have shifted slightly (I'm still worried about the proper variety).

I'm starting to think it may have something to do with the water changes. They've been through (practically) 2 since I got them. One was a day or two before they were introduced to my tank, and I remember they were definately not happy when I did, they were swarming all over the glass for about ten hours straight, displaying some pretty basic "I want out" behaviour. The second time I performed a water change, they were mildy agitated for maybe 4-6 hours, and then one of them died a few days later. Related?

I'm going to get some more test kits to see what I can find out about my water, and contact my water supplier as well. I'd also like to try prime, instead of the water conditioner I'm currently using - which works fine for fish - but has superfluous stuff like slime coating and may not be ideal for shrimp.

I'm also wondering if their aeration wasn't up to par. I had a piece of filter sponge floating underneath the outflow to reduce currents; the water simply diffused rather gently into the tank. I've removed that for the time being, and the water is now very well aerated, and full of microbubbles. I think the tank is still calm enough for them; there is plenty of unrooted java moss that isn't drifting anywhere.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:53 pm

What water conditioner do you use?

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:33 pm

The stuff I've been using for quite a while is simply called "Stress Coat", made by aquarium pharmaceuticals. Recently I bought some new stuff called aquasafe, the brand name is "TetraAqua". I believe that is what I treated the most recent batch of water with; I still have both in my cabinet.

Post by **Mustafa** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:33 pm

There is no reason to be worried about this. What you have observed is absolutely normal behavior. All dwarf shrimp do that, Amanos, too. It's just that you won't usually observe that with Amano shrimp as they take off with the food and eat it away from the other shrimp. The death of your shrimp has other reasons. It probably died of accumlated stress during and even before it got shipped to you. From what you said your tank sounds fine, except for the agitated shrimp after water changes. Just get prime and that should solve the problem.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:12 am

I guess my interpretation of them "fighting" was off. The fact that they were so competitive during that short while does seem to indicate a brief food shortage; I'd like to find some leaves for them.

I'll pick up some prime before I change their water again, and find out what I can about our water parameters.
Here's a shot I took of several shrimp grazing on a piece of sea sponge:

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:35 pm

Things are not going well at all

I came home today to a dead shrimp, and noticed another one that did not look healthy at all. It looked like he had problems molting or something. I went out to the petstore to pick up some things, and when I came back, he had died. I then noticed at least five more shrimp in the tank with varying degrees of this problem. I was able to get a picture of the worst of them:

Some of the milder cases look are just a faint line, but you can tell it's happening to them too.

It looks exactly like the problem Suzie Q is having right now

I picked up some prime for my next water change (which I'm working on right now, the new water is just being heated first). I also picked up some more test kits, since I was worried mine were rather old, the nitrate kit had actually expired.
Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates still did not register, PH was 8.2, and hardness was 9 degrees, or 161.1 ppm

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:40 pm

I just noticed we'd both been using Aquasafe, made by Tetra... Could it have some sort of additive in there that does horrible things to shrimp?

Suzie Q wrote: I have been reading about using Prime in the Shrimp tank...ok, I finally got some, but I have been using the last of AquaSafe by Tetra (yes it has slimecoat stuff in it...bad me)...could THIS be a major reason I don't have babies yet? I asked the guy I got mine from if he uses Prime, and he said he did not (actually never heard of it). I keep Betta Fish at home (in their own tanks), so that is why I have slimecoat conditioner. With the next water change, it will be stricty Prime. Any thoughts?
Thanks guys!

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:36 pm

One of the other similarities is that we both had other creatures in there that could have harmed the cherries. I've never witnessed my ghost shrimp being violent towards the cherries, but I've removed them anyway. Should I remove the amanos too?

I also finished my water change with the prime and did NOT witness the frantic swimming around I normally did when adding new water.
I'm in the process of doing another water change, since the first one went over so well. I only removed about 25% both times, so I don't think that's excessive. I don't want to shock them, but I'm worried there are bad chemicals in my tank that I need to get rid of. Hopefully my shrimp recover.

Oh, and I added a sponge filter to the tank as well. Mostly just for additional aeration, but I was also worried that my canister may be holding too many micro-organisms away from where the shrimp can feed on them.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:08 am

What is it that you think is wrong with the shrimp pictured? That is a normal saddled (read pregnant) female.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:28 am

There's a big gap in it's exoskeleton. Like it split it's shell in preperation to molt, and lost a small section, but never actually completed the molt. A bunch of the the other shrimp have split there shell also, but not all of them have large gaps yet.

This shrimp was swimming around and acting normally when I took that picture last night, but this morning it was in very rough shape. It was sitting on the filter sponge, and I couldn't even tell if it was alive. I gave the sponge a little jiggle and the other shrimp all took off but she just sat there. Then I noticed her gills were going, and after a few minutes she crawled a couple inches..

The one who died last night looked like that too.

The rest of the shrimp are all acting fine, actively scrounging for food and swimming around. Even the ones who look like they have the same problem with their shell. The female in the picture was acting fine last night too though, and now she can barely move...

Suzie Q · Post by **Suzie Q** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:50 am

That does look a lot like what mine did...only the "head" portion was raised...is this some new disease? I did not have GS or Amanos.

Is there any way to combind these threads? They seem so close to the same topic (except that my RCS are not reproducing, though I don't think it is related to the injury).

Decor in MY tank...Sponge filter, corner filter (the blue kind), multi-colored rock with Java Moss (moss attached with sewing thread..pretty tight)..the thread may have cut her, but I think it is to tight to get under...I will remove it today as the Java should be attached enough by now..Maylain? wood "chip" with Twainan Moss (attached w/rubberband)...again, I can remove..., "green" rock (can not get anything to attach to it..to smooth I guess).

Plants...Java Moss, Java Fern, Naja, Rotala, Cabombia?, small/tiny Lace Fern, Twainan Moss..seems like I am forgetting one.

Could the shrimp have gotten caught in the roots of one of these plants and struggled to get free?...of course that does not explain Cactus Bastard's several shrimp having simular problems.

MODs...I am copying this into MY thread...hope that is ok, until we figure out if it should be one thread or not.