RCS dropped eggs, but still handling them?

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:52 am

I found what I thought was an... (excuse me for the term) exploded Cherry this morning. I couldn't see well as she is in a clump of java moss, i just saw part of her body and a clump of eggs. I thought maybe the eggs became too large, or she was too stressed and died/aborted simulatneously or one shortly after the other. After pondering how, exactly, I was going to extract her without upsetting the whole tank all of a sudden she started moving. She was gathering the eggs about and tending them. They are decidedly green and quite large. She continues to work over the eggs, just sort of aerating and gently moving them about as if she were still pregnant and fanning.

I did some searches on aborted eggs, nothing quite like this came up, and I definitely wanted to ask.

Holly

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:45 am

Never seen this behavior, but I would just leave her alone and see what happens. The color really doesn''t mean much. If good water flow is maintained, there could be a hatch.

Normally the females do not molt while berried, but something has triggered this early. Keep your fingers crossed! I have managed to hatch a few shrimp from dead animals, so you may get lucky. It just depends on how close to hatching they are.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:17 pm

She has abandoned them along with a shed exoskeleton. She was young, very little red. She looked more pregnant than any of my other shrimp, which surprised me. I'm having a hard time with getting mine to breed.

Water Paramaters:
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
GH 150
KH 0
pH 7

My water is usually more Alkaline with a higher pH but I started adding dried ketapang leaves for leaf litter. The water dropped my pH and alkalinity. The tank is running on a sponge filter which seems to keep my bio cycle chugging right along. The drop in KH and pH enough to stress them? I'm going to add some more crushed coral to buffer up the pH and alkalinity. Crushed coral is my best friend. I use it in all my tanks (along with salt) no salt in the RCS tank though, I had read salt was bad for them... is that true?

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:25 pm

You need to get the nitrates a lot lower. My cheries won't breed until the nitrates are down to around 5 ppm. Aged hard wood leaves, soaked for a couple of weeks will help do this, and if you are using any ferts, stop now.

What is the nitrate level of your water? If it is high you can set up a plant tank with fast growing plants and lots of light to remove the nitrates. I use najas and hornwort.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:40 pm

its 20ppm coming out of the tap. didn't realize nitrates would need to be so low, coming from fish 20ppm is good, means the tank is cycled and sitting nicely.

I've got dried ketapang leaves that I soaked in the tank and not using any ferts. I can start adding plants, however, and ramp up the wattage on the light.

thanks for the info!

zapisto · Post by **zapisto** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:43 pm

me also i keeping my nitrate close to 0 in no plant or easy plant tank
and in planted tank keeping my nitrate under 5ppm

salvinia and duckweed can help you remove some nitrate , but they have their bad side also.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:48 pm

i had some watersprite and duckweed, added more and some amquel, see if this helps.

Post by **Mustafa** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:22 pm

hollyszoo wrote: I've got dried ketapang leaves that I soaked in the tank and not using any ferts. I can start adding plants, however, and ramp up the wattage on the light.

thanks for the info!

Ketapang = Indian Almond = do NOT soak them in your aquarium as they release way too much tannin. It's mentioned in my introductory article here, which you might want to go over again. Other than that all I can say is not to fiddle too much with your tank. Just keep it all simple and basic. Salt is not "bad" per se (and many "freshwater" shrimp species live in brackish water, too), but it's completely unnecessary, especially that aquarium salt. No serious breeder of fish or shrimp that I know (including myself) uses salt as an additive.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:43 am

okay nix the ketapang. must have missed that, because i did read the intro.

most of the breeders that my original guppies came from use salt, that's why I do. i've had much better results with than without. so, i use salt with the gups. not my cories, angels, tetras, loaches, plecs, but with the guppies always. I'm a little offended by that comment. Everyone does things differently but I was asking about the shrimp. My fish are just fine.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:33 am

Please don't be offended by comments such as that. Many of us try to stick to just the facts and don't sugar coat it. We don't intend to be offensive, even though it sometimes comes accross that way. We are just really focused on keeping shrimp.

Aquarium salt is primarily a practice to keep ick at bay and is entirely unneeded in shrimp that are fresh water in nature. A few teaspoons per gallon doesn't hurt RCS, but may hurt other species, I can't say. It doesn't help. In animals that live in a slightly brackish environment you are better served using sea salt.

I've kept guppies for a very long time (Endlers) and they don't need salt either, but it doesn't hurt them. Currently I do not use salt in any of my freshwater tanks.

AnneRiceBowl · Post by **AnneRiceBowl** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:11 am

The guppy breeder you know uses salt because livebearers like guppies and mollies do better with a little marine (sea) salt in their water. Mollies actually live much better in marine water. My favorite LPS uses mollies to keep their salt water tanks cycled.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:03 am

Right, Anne.

most of the breeders I have done business with (4 breeders, very popular, IFGA breeders) keep their guppies fairly brackish. mod-high alkalinity, fairly high salt (1 tbsp per 5 g.), hard water, pH close to neutral.

I can definitely say that since adopting that regimen my guppies do far better than before. I was having many problems before I made the change and adjusted my guppy tanks to those parameters

I keep endler's as well. Mine are in with cories, I don't use any salt in the tank. I think the endler's do better because they are hardier fish in general and adapt better than the highly specialized and somewhat fragile guppies.

But, to keep this on topic, I removed the ketapang leaves and did a water change. To prevent loss of shrimplets I pour the old water into my outside endler's barrel pond. Tons of plants and java moss. If any make it out to the pond I'm fairly sure they'll be fine. I have lots of dark red females, if I can keep the nitrates way low then I should have a population explosion. I have added more java moss, added more water sprite. I have more duckweed, azolla, etc. that I can add as necessary. I'll check every few days until I feel the tank has stabilized

Post by **Mustafa** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:48 pm

There is absolutely no reason to get offended. As badflash said, this forum is about facts and I just stated a fact from my experience. In contrast to other forums we are not trying to create an atmosphere of "total agreement" and "warm and fuzzy feelings with hugs and kisses" (while giving actual facts a lower priority), but *facts* are the number one priority here, even if it takes a "You are wrong!" thrown in someone's face. It's never personal. I try to keep this website scientifically oriented after all. And in the scientific community people prove each other wrong all the time to get to the facts. If every scientist gets offended all the time, nothing would ever get done. I am of the opinion that the hobby is in dire need of adopting a more scientific attitude as more and more myths have been spreading over the years and many of those myths have been accepted as "facts" just because they have been repeated often enough by pseudo-gurus and their followers.

Anyway, you may want to read some of my other explanations that I have given to people over the years who felt "offended" (including to badflash

) to get more of an idea of what I am talking about. And as say always...this website is definitely not for people who are easily offended. I want serious hobbyists (or serious hobbyists in the making) here who can concentrate on the issues at hand instead of concentrating on their personal issues. If you are new to shrimp and seek advice the worst thing to do is to get offended. We have had many so called "fish gurus" come here, seek advice, been told they are wrong, and get offended because they felt their "guruness" was not recognized. The clever ones get over it and stay and the others leave and learn nothing. It's an individual choice.

Having said that...guppies live in a variety of habitats in nature (which I have visited) with many populations living in very soft and even acidic waters (and non-detactable nitrates, phosphates and other organics). Same applies to many molly species. One can't make a blanket statement saying "livebearers do better with salt" if one knows the natural habitats of these fish. In captivity, including fish farms, salt is constantly used because these fish live in overcrowded conditions and salt keeps many diseases at bay that would otherwise cause problems. The overcrowded conditions (with the high nitrates and other organics) weaken the immune systems of these fish in captivity. Hence, some people put them in a constant "salt bath." That does not mean that's the best way to keep them. And "advanced" breeder would try to take care of the pollution problem (the cause) instead of taking care of the symptoms of the problem by adding salt.

Anyway, this is way too off-topic and I don't want this "livebearer/salt" conversation to continue (i.e. I don't want to see replies sayin..."but no, livbearers absolutely need salt). I have given my explanation for my statement and let's leave it at that. You might agree, or disagree for whatever reasons (reasonable/factual or not) you may have (maybe you have been to a "salty river" in South America and would like to tell the world about it for example

). Suffice it to say that I have been in the "hobby" for almost 26 years and my expertise about aquarium animals is not restricted to just shrimp. Shrimp just happen to be my concentration at this point.

hollyszoo · Post by **hollyszoo** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:11 pm

I can get over being offended. Getting these shrimp in shape is more important to me than a debate over salt. Considering I don't use salt in the shrimp tank in the first place

i made the changes in my previous post. I will attempt to find hardwood leaves for leaf litter. Right now they just have heaps of java moss to romp in.

How often should I do water changes to remove the tannins, or will it dissipate on it's own?

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:44 pm

hollyszoo wrote: How often should I do water changes to remove the tannins, or will it dissipate on it's own?

If you have just removed the leaves, I would just keep up you're normal WC regimen, and over time, all the tannins will be carried out along with the Wc water. No need to overstress the shrimp with extra WCs, if they are otherwise fine. I could be wrong though.

In my experiences, small amounts of tannin in the water (At least, I believe it was a small amount. Just enough to tint the water slightly brown.), the 'saddle' development in females slows down quite a bit.

-John