copper levels

peteg · Post by **peteg** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:11 am

Hi

I am trying to find out a defined ppm value of a dangerous copper level for my shrimps. Ive searched the forum and web and although i can find plenty general info, i havent found any definate values.

I have tested my main tank and my tap water and both show copper (my test is very old but i dont thing that should effect the results)

Tap water reads:0.25ppm
Aquarium reads:0.075ppm

At the moment my shrimp (cherry and ghost) are in a small tank which i fill with bottled water and they are doing good but i would like to have them in the main aquarium if possible. I am filtering the aquarium with carbon and polyfilter.

Are my copper levels simply too high to risk it? Thinking about it, anytime i try to introduce snails to my tank they always die off. i wonder if this is why...

shrimpbaby · Post by **shrimpbaby** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:19 am

As far as I know, any measurable amount of copper is toxic to shrimp. Also, it's very hard to get copper out of a tank once it is there.

I've heard rumor that even with a tank that has been stripped down and cleaned, the copper can soak into the silicone and such. I don't know if that's true or not. It do wonder though.

AnneRiceBowl · Post by **AnneRiceBowl** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:46 am

What dechlorinator are you using? Most of us here like to use Prime.

peteg · Post by **peteg** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:56 pm

Im currently finishing a large bottle of kingbritish declorinator that ive had for ages! I have read about prime but i didnt realise it did anything with copper. Ive just been to look on the seachem website and it does mention it detoxifys metals.
Will it detoxify copper? surley it isnt taking it out so would it be reliable for this?
Had a look around the seachem site and found CupriSorbhttp://www.seachem.com/products/product ... iSorb.html
This is described as a powerful adsorbent of copper and heavy metals.
Anybody any experiance with this?

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:15 pm

shrimpbaby wrote:As far as I know, any measurable amount of copper is toxic to shrimp. Also, it's very hard to get copper out of a tank once it is there.

I've heard rumor that even with a tank that has been stripped down and cleaned, the copper can soak into the silicone and such.

Yes, copper will get into everything, and leach out from your substrate, ornaments, and tank itself for years to come. The saltwater guys have even more sensitive inverts.

I've been using that seachem product mentioned above "cuprisorb", and I think it's great. It claims to be able to remove even the trace amounts of copper, and other heavy metals, and I believe it works. It also changes color when it becomes saturated to let you know when it needs to be changed or renewed.

Post by **Mustafa** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:56 pm

Unless your water is acidic (i.e. under ph 7) I would not worry too much about things like copper. Heavy metals, like copper, iron, etc..are not very soluble at alkaline ph and fall out of solution rather quickly without harming tank inhabitants.

Whatever your problem is...I would just do a 25-50% one-time water change *if* immediate action is necessary (i.e. your shrimp are dying every day) and then just leave the tank alone. That usually solves every problem imaginable.

zapisto · Post by **zapisto** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:12 am

Mustafa wrote: Whatever your problem is...I would just do a 25-50% one-time water change *if* immediate action is necessary (i.e. your shrimp are dying every day) and then just leave the tank alone. That usually solves every problem imaginable.

hey mustafa , you know what , i found that myself and was asking myself if that a fact or just a hazard
now i got the answer

bulrush · Post by **bulrush** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:13 am

shrimpbaby wrote:As far as I know, any measurable amount of copper is toxic to shrimp. Also, it's very hard to get copper out of a tank once it is there.

I've heard rumor that even with a tank that has been stripped down and cleaned, the copper can soak into the silicone and such. I don't know if that's true or not. It do wonder though.

Shrimpbaby may be correct, that if you can measure the copper level (i.e. the level shows up on a test), it may be toxic. But I can tell you this from experience. I have fed my shrimp foods containing copper sulfate (different from elemental copper, which might be the main problem that people report) for 2 years and have not had a single problem. My RCS are thriving in 3 different tanks. Apparently the copper sulfate levels in the food are too low to hurt the shrimp.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:57 pm

Mustafa wrote:Unless your water is acidic (i.e. under ph 7) I would not worry too much about things like copper.

He mentioned tapwater copper levels of 0.25 ppm. That's actually pretty high, I'd even say dangerously high.
I've been searching the net for a while now, trying to find out the actual range where copper levels start getting toxic to shrimp, and although I haven't found much info on *shrimp* 0.25ppm is way to high to keep a lot of other inverts.

Post by **Mustafa** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:10 pm

It all depends on what kind of copper is in the water. Most copper/heavy metals at higher PH levels that gets measured is chelated, which means that it's bound to something else chemically and non-toxic. So, you could read very high "toxic" levels of heavy metals at higher ph and your shrimp will do fine. The same levels at lower ph may be very toxic, if not chelated, as heavy metals are quite sulable *by themselves* (i.e. not bound to other things called "chelators") at low ph.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:50 am

That's interesting, thanks for clarifying.

peteg · Post by **peteg** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:18 pm

Thanks for all the infomation.

Ignoring the copper readings then, when i put snails in my main tank they die within the hour so im assuming this is a bad sign. I dont want to risk shrimps until i can atleast put in a couple of snails and see them survive.

Using the snails i have set up a couple of experiments and its looking like the toxicness is coming from either my gravel or at least the waterchemistry at the gravel level.

I set up 2 tubs of water, 1 with untreated tap water and the other with water from the main tank and i placed a couple of snails in each tub. So far the snails havent died in either. In the morning i will add gravel straight out of the tank into one of the tubs and see what happens.

Assuming this kills them, i will try 'treating' the gravel in some way and add it to the other tub and see what happens.

I feel a bit bad using the snails like modernday canaries but i would only kill them anyway. and it seems like the best way to reliably see when the toxic levels of whatever have at least started to fall.

Cactus Bastard · Post by **Cactus Bastard** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:41 am

What kind of gravel are you using?