I have had cherry shrimp for about 4 or 5 months now. Several days ago they began to die one by one- it seems to be mostly the larger/older shrimp dying. I've lost about 3 or 4 at this point. The tank is 10 gallons, planted with Egeria, Java Fern, Java Moss, a little Moneywort and what might be Green Hendge. Here's the rundown:
10G
ph 7.1
GH + kH unknown, but I believe the water to be quite hard
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-10
Stocking:
1 small Ram
4 Cardinal Tetras
3 Glo Lite Tetras
2 Otos
3 or 4 Amano shrimp
10-15 Cherry shrimp
The Ram does not harass the living shrimp at all, which I found suprising. He does, however, seem to snack on the dead ones.
I have several suspected causes, but can't narrow down which might be the problem:
1.) Several weeks ago I added vermiculite under the gravel to help the plants. I have read that this is a safe, inexpensive substrate for planted tanks, but have never heard of anyone using it with shrimp.
2.) There is one Flourish fertilizer tab in the substrate, and I've been dosing about .2 ml of Flourish once or twice a week. These contain trace amounts of copper. (.001% for the tablet, .0001% for the liquid)
3.) I have switced from using Flourish Excel for carbon to using one of the Hagen natural CO2 systems. For those not familiar, it is essentially a DIY-style CO2 unit with yeast in a bottle connected to a plastic diffuser. Since doing this, my pH has dropped from 7.6 down to about 7.0-7.2. Sorry I can't give more exact numbers, but the test kit is difficult to read. I do not have a kH test kit, so I am not able to measure ppm of CO2 in the tank. The deaths seem to have begun shortly after adding the CO2 system.
None of the other animals in the tank show any signs of distress, including the Amano shrimp. Is old age a possible explanation for the Red Cherry deaths? What is the life expectancy on these shrimp? They were quite young when I first recieved them in August.
I am considering removing some or all of the shrimp to an empty 5G tank without CO2 until I can sort out the problem, but I'm a little concerned about moving them from the 7.1 pH water to the 7.6 that comes out of the tap, since they have already suffered through one pH change.
Has anyone here used Flourish and Flourish tabs without incident? How about vermiculite substrate? I didn't think the CO2 would be a problem since it is a rather low output, DIY type unit in a tank with what I think is rather hard water, but I could be wrong. Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer about this situation.
Cherry Shrimp dying one by one! :( co2? copper?
Moderator: Mustafa
Re: Cherry Shrimp dying one by one! :( co2? copper?
tgildea wrote: 1.) Several weeks ago I added vermiculite under the gravel to help the plants. I have read that this is a safe, inexpensive substrate for planted tanks, but have never heard of anyone using it with shrimp.
Actually, it is not that great a substrate for aquatic plants, but that is another matter.
Use one or the other. Even SeaChem recommends this. However, if you are following the directions and your plants are healthy, the copper levels should not be a problem. How much light are you using? What is its color temp?2.) There is one Flourish fertilizer tab in the substrate, and I've been dosing about .2 ml of Flourish once or twice a week. These contain trace amounts of copper. (.001% for the tablet, .0001% for the liquid)
This is an odd result. Flourish Excel should not lower the pH of your water, especially if you stopped injecting CO2. Are you sure you are dosing the correct amount? If you overdose, the extra will decay. This process can eat up the oxygen in your tank.3.) I have switced from using Flourish Excel for carbon to using one of the Hagen natural CO2 systems. For those not familiar, it is essentially a DIY-style CO2 unit with yeast in a bottle connected to a plastic diffuser. Since doing this, my pH has dropped from 7.6 down to about 7.0-7.2.
Flourish Excel is not CO2. It is a photosynthetic compound.Sorry I can't give more exact numbers, but the test kit is difficult to read. I do not have a kH test kit, so I am not able to measure ppm of CO2 in the tank. The deaths seem to have begun shortly after adding the CO2 system.
Are your shrimp turning a milky color before they die? Or are you just finging the dead body?
Thank you for responding so quickly. I think you misunderstood my post-- perhaps I phrased it badly. I have discontinued using Flourish Excel, and started injecting CO2. From what I have read, lower pH is a common effect of CO2 injection. I am using 2 13 watt 6700K CF bulbs to light the tank, for 2.6 WPG. They are on for 12 hours/day. I have also decided to stop with the Flourish liquid, as the one tab seems to be enough to give the plants what they need. It's been about about a week, give or take a couple days, since I stopped dosing the liquid. The plants are very healthy, and have been growing excellently with the CO2 injection as compared with Flourish Excel. I hope that I will not have to discontinue using CO2 and/or the Flourish tablets, as the plants have never looked better.
The shrimp have been turning a milky color before they die- I usually notice that the shrimp looks unhealthy a day or so before it dies. It is most noticable in shrimp that have translucent areas. The female shrimp that died today was extremely red, so it was difficult to say how milky that one was. However, I did notice an unusual white area near the saddle, where the head meets the rest of the body. It was not the normal yellow saddle that females display. It was a line across the back, perpendicular to the white stripe that sometimes develops down the center of their back. It looked almost as if the shell had begun to separate in this area. This might mean that the inside of the shrimp, under the shell, had turned white just like the several shrimp who died before this one. What does it mean when shrimp turn milky white before death? Thanks again!
The shrimp have been turning a milky color before they die- I usually notice that the shrimp looks unhealthy a day or so before it dies. It is most noticable in shrimp that have translucent areas. The female shrimp that died today was extremely red, so it was difficult to say how milky that one was. However, I did notice an unusual white area near the saddle, where the head meets the rest of the body. It was not the normal yellow saddle that females display. It was a line across the back, perpendicular to the white stripe that sometimes develops down the center of their back. It looked almost as if the shell had begun to separate in this area. This might mean that the inside of the shrimp, under the shell, had turned white just like the several shrimp who died before this one. What does it mean when shrimp turn milky white before death? Thanks again!
I wish I could help you out with this. I've had a few of my older females die over the past few weeks as well. It's only the oldest ones, so I'm hoping it's just age -- these are NOT the ones I got from Mustafa, but some I'd gotten here in town (I have no idea how old they were when I got them).
I really don't think CO2 is the culprit though. It's very doubtful the Hagen system would inject enough CO2 to be a problem (unless we were talking about a really small tank). Regardless, if it were the problem, you would also see your fish gasping for breath at the surface.
Keep in mind, though, that plants produce CO2 at night, so it's possible your CO2 is getting higher at night (again, doubtful with just the Hagen system, but you should get your kh test and calculate the CO2 both in the morning before the lights come on and again in the evening before they shut off, just to be certain).
As for the fertilizers, the concentration of copper is far too low to be an issue. And many of us here add fertilizer to our tanks without problem.
Bradimus, I just checked Seachem's website, and its info for Flourish Tabs states in part:
I really don't think CO2 is the culprit though. It's very doubtful the Hagen system would inject enough CO2 to be a problem (unless we were talking about a really small tank). Regardless, if it were the problem, you would also see your fish gasping for breath at the surface.
Keep in mind, though, that plants produce CO2 at night, so it's possible your CO2 is getting higher at night (again, doubtful with just the Hagen system, but you should get your kh test and calculate the CO2 both in the morning before the lights come on and again in the evening before they shut off, just to be certain).
As for the fertilizers, the concentration of copper is far too low to be an issue. And many of us here add fertilizer to our tanks without problem.
Bradimus, I just checked Seachem's website, and its info for Flourish Tabs states in part:
...For best results, use in combination with Flourish™
Yes.amanda_h wrote: Bradimus, does Seachem really only recommend one or the other? I'm not using Seachem ferts, but I use both root tabs and liquid ferts in my tanks (some plants feed through the roots, while others get their nutrients from the water column).
They make the same observation that you have and do acknowledge that there can be a benefit in using both. After speaking with a rep, I gathered that their main concern is over-dosing. If it is working for you, I wouldn't change it. OTOH, I wouldn't start it either.
It is doubtful that CO2 is the problem.tgildea wrote:I hope that I will not have to discontinue using CO2 and/or the Flourish tablets, as the plants have never looked better.
I was wondering if the Ram was having a snack when you weren't looking, but the milky color indicates that the shrimp are dying from something else.The shrimp have been turning a milky color before they die- I usually notice that the shrimp looks unhealthy a day or so before it dies. It is most noticable in shrimp that have translucent areas.
Can you get a picture of this. Someone else described this in another thread. There was some speculation that there was a problem with forming the shell, but I don't remember the details.It looked almost as if the shell had begun to separate in this area. This might mean that the inside of the shrimp, under the shell, had turned white just like the several shrimp who died before this one.
That they are sick and dying. If you did not see them turning white, I would have guessed that they were being killed.What does it mean when shrimp turn milky white before death? Thanks again!