Bumblebee Color Variation Questions - Updated!

[Mustafa]

Hats - where to put them all - sounds like you need an ultra-huge hat rack, Mustafa! I noticed the useful updates though.

Trying my best to keep up.

Mustafa, I'm beginnning to seriously think the aforementioned male is a selectively bred cull (as mentioned by Ed) that got thrown in with a shipment of wild caughts.

Not necessarily. I have noticed quite a bit of variation among imported bumblebees and even among some captive bred populations. Some have brighter colors and some don't. The coloration seems to depend on age, mood and water parameters also.

Got some peat granules in hopes my shrimp will do better. Haven't implemented it just yet - was wondering what approach to take - start out slow with a very small scoop in a media bag in the filter or as peat-treated change water? Any pros or cons one way or the other?

Peat takes a quite some time to show effect on water parameters. I'd go with the peat in the filter option to give the water as much contact time as possible. Pretreating it will only be effective if you have a separate tank/container where you can let the peat and the water sit for days or even weeks. Your water will probably have a slight brownish/yellowish tint to it too after the peat treatment. I don't know where you got your peat, but the cheapest option is to get 100% peat from a hardware store (such as home depot). You get something like 10-20lbs for about $3.00.

Having said that, I don't know if peat is the best option for lowering KH and GH, because I am not sure yet if the organic compounds released into the water by the peat have some negative effect on the shrimp or not.

I'm fanatic about trying to keep things stable and change things only slowly. The challenge is that either way, the water changes will present some differences from the tank - but since I only change 10 - 15%, I'm thinking it shouldn't be too extreme?

When it comes to changing the PH downwards, I would not worry too much about sudden changes. It's better to change the parameters as quickly as possible to their preferred parameters than let them live in water that is not optimal for them.

I use the same method as Bo in terms of diluting tap water, except using 10% distilled to my change water (I don't have access to RO).

Try changing that ratio around (90 percent distilled) and see what PH you get out of the mix (mix in a small container first and measure ph to determine the right ratio). If it's between 6 and 7 you're done. If the ph is not where you wanted it, experiment further with the ratio. You don't even need peat or anything else. This could get costly with store-bought distilled water, though. That's why many people buy an RO unit. And don't worry about KH or GH. These guys are used to conditions where KH and GH are close to 0.

I'm afraid to increase the distilled water percentage because I don't want my KH to go too low.

Actually, with these shrimp you *want* your KH to go "too" low. What's important is that the PH gets below 7. If you perform regular water changes and feeding is not too excessive then you do not have to worry about a ph crash. Plus, animals adjusted to low ph waters are not really all that affected by ph crashes anyway.

I know very little about water chemistry but know too low makes water lose its buffering capacity - or am I still not understanding what I'm doing?

As I said above, you do not need to worry too much about buffering if your goal is to achieve low ph water. In most cases buffering (kh) refers to the ability of your water to counter acidifying (i.e. ph lowering) effects of biological processes in your aquarium. There are acid buffers, too, which counter increases in ph, but that's a different story altogether. The main point is that we want low PH water and the KH (i.e. buffering) is just in the way.

Mustafa, how are the egg production on yours? Is your colony getting off the ground more smoothly since implementing more of what we know about Bumblebees? For myself, it's been understandably slow going; this round, I only see about 9 - 10 eggs on mine.

I don't really have problems with egg production and my females are producing 20-30 eggs every time. That only happened, however, after I got my PH down to about 7.0-7.2. Before that, my females did drop their eggs a lot. That ph turned out to be not low enough for most offspring to survive, so reproduction has been extremely slow and I was only able to maintain the population of most of my soft water species. It's been a tough battle for me to get my ph below 7. My water comes out of the tap with 0 KH and 0 GH and a PH of 6.8. However, after the water is in the tank the PH shoots up to 7.6 and above (i'm guessing after all the CO2 escapes from the water). With such a low KH my ph should be closer to 7 and should acidify over time pretty easily. But no such luck. I am thinking that the city is adding something to the water which drives up the PH, but which does not get measured with my KH set. KH only measures carbonate hardness, but there are chemicals that are not carbonates that can be used to increase PH.

In any case, I have *just* resolved this issue by starting to use hydrochloric acid (VERY DANGEROUS!!) in my water and I am able to lower the ph down to 6.4-6.6 and it stays there. This is a very strong acid and it eats away on anything that tries to raise ph (and it also eats away on your skin!!!). It also gives off toxic fumes (should handle it with a gas mask), so I really, really do not recommend people going out and buying hydrochloric acid. However, it's totally safe for the shrimp after its added to the water since it reacts to produce hydrogen/hydronium ions (wich lower PH) and chloride ions (NOT chlorine and totally harmless to fish and shrimp). But, as I said, it's not something that you want to use around your house. Maybe some of the commercial, non-phosphate based acid buffers are a better option for hobbyists if you have tried the RO route and your water *still* has a high PH. I have not tried any of them so I can't really recommend anything. But an RO unit should be able to resolve high ph issues by itself in most cases.

So, I am hoping that the reproductive rate of my species that need low ph increases now and that I can finally offer more of them to the public. As you can see, it takes quite a bit more effort to keep and breed the soft water, low ph species, but that's what makes them so interesting....the challenge.

Take care,
Mustafa

[Mustafa]

She has dropped all the eggs
Then the waiting starts again.

Sorry to hear. I really suspect that your PH is higher than you think it is.

[GunmetalBlue]

She has dropped all the eggs
Then the waiting starts again.

Bo - *sigh, very disappointing; hope you won't have too long to wait. Arghhh ... wimper - I just lost another shrimplet today. I thought their being over a month old would help but no such luck.

Mustafa, thank you sooo much for the time you took for such detailed analysis.

The peat granules I got are specifically for aquarium use with Fluval filters though I'm sure it's not necessary to have that particular filter setup. However, I would have preferred to skip that step: Simple = less chance for multiple mistakes. And from what you described for me, attacking the pH issue by increasing the percentage of pure water sounds like my best (and a more simple) approach.

Did you do a mathematical calculation for the ratio of tap to distilled? Testing it out, I got about 6.5 pH with the 10% tap/90% distilled. I'm going to start increasing the distilled to tap water ratio for my water changes, but let me make sure I understand this. Am I correct in understanding the tap water/distilled is all that's necessary? Part of my fear about using too much pure water is that it's missing certain minerals and whatever else that might be beneficial - so do I understand correctly that I do NOT have to mess with adding something back into the water because there's still a tap water ratio in there? Also I think you are saying BBs are used to these conditions.

I appreciate your sharing your own water problem battles with us. Glad you are finally getting it worked out though I must say, you're doing some EXTREME shrimpin' there! Here I thought you had it easy because I knew you had soft, low pH tap water - but how strange your pH spikes up regardless. Hopefully my water problem is straightforward and changing the tap/pure water ratio will be the only step needed. I'll have to keep a careful watch on any pH swings, should there be any.

You're getting good egg production; 20 - 30 eggs sounds like a lot for Bumblebees. It's so discouraging when they drop them though. Then getting the offspring to survive is a whole other ball game which I'm struggling with right now. Hopefully things will and are improving for all of us now that we know more.

Thanks again, GB

[bochr]

Mustafa you were right about the PH.
I bought a Tetra drop test, and it shows something between 8.0 and 8.5.
I thought the peat would have much more effect on the PH.
As far as I have understood, I need softer water to lower the PH succesfully.

[Mustafa]

I just lost another shrimplet today. I thought their being over a month old would help but no such luck.

So how are the little guys doing now? The PH adjustment might have saved them or they might actually have been affected too much so that even adjusting the PH might not have helped. But the next batch of shrimp should do much better.

Mustafa, thank you sooo much for the time you took for such detailed analysis.

You're welcome. That's what this website and I are here for.

And from what you described for me, attacking the pH issue by increasing the percentage of pure water sounds like my best (and a more simple) approach.

Yes, it's the best option. That way you are not introducing any additional organics into your water as you would be with peat.

Did you do a mathematical calculation for the ratio of tap to distilled? Testing it out, I got about 6.5 pH with the 10% tap/90% distilled.

No, no mathematics involved. My gut feeling told me that with your water parameters that ratio might be a good starting point. Sounds like it's a good ending point, too! 6.5 is a perfect ph for low ph shrimp species.

Am I correct in understanding the tap water/distilled is all that's necessary? Part of my fear about using too much pure water is that it's missing certain minerals and whatever else that might be beneficial - so do I understand correctly that I do NOT have to mess with adding something back into the water because there's still a tap water ratio in there? Also I think you are saying BBs are used to these conditions.

--Yes, just mixing the water is all you need to do. Your tap water will have all the necessary minerals in the right ratios. Don't add anything. Besides, naturally acid river water does not have all that many minerals to begin with since in many small rivers where shrimp occur it's almost pure rain water. Sorry, I did not reply to this earlier (you know...busy, busy, busy)...I hope you went ahead and mixed the water in this ratio anyway.

I appreciate your sharing your own water problem battles with us. Glad you are finally getting it worked out though I must say, you're doing some EXTREME shrimpin' there!

Haha...extreme problems and situations require extreme measures.

Here I thought you had it easy because I knew you had soft, low pH tap water - but how strange your pH spikes up regardless.

Yeah, the high ph (thanks to the city's additions) has been the reason why I haven't been able to offer all the nice acid water shrimp earlier. The acid is really the only solution in my situation. See...naturally soft water with my parameters (<1 KH, <1 GH) does not have a high PH, but the artificial non-carbonate buffers the city is adding raise the PH regardless. Other than that New York water would be perfect for acid water shrimp (or fish) right out of the tap.

Hopefully my water problem is straightforward and changing the tap/pure water ratio will be the only step needed. I'll have to keep a careful watch on any pH swings, should there be any.

Well, it seems like it worked in your small scale experiment, so it should be just as straightforward in your tank.

You're getting good egg production; 20 - 30 eggs sounds like a lot for Bumblebees.

20-40 eggs should be normal egg production for this species if kept under optimal, low ph conditions.

It's so discouraging when they drop them though.

That should not be happening anymore once you set the ph to 6.5.

Then getting the offspring to survive is a whole other ball game which I'm struggling with right now. Hopefully things will and are improving for all of us now that we know more.

Things will definitely improve. They have improved tremendously for me already so that I should be having enough offspring of these acid water species to offer them to the public soon (2-3 months).

As long as the conditions for which these shrimp have evolved are replicated in the aquarium they will be healthy and reproduce.

[Mustafa]

Mustafa you were right about the PH.
I bought a Tetra drop test, and it shows something between 8.0 and 8.5.
I thought the peat would have much more effect on the PH.
As far as I have understood, I need softer water to lower the PH succesfully.

Ah, there you go. So, the problem has been clearly identified. So, now you just need to increase the RO water percentage in your tank to lower the ph just like GB is doing with her bumblebee tank.

[GunmetalBlue]

So how are the little guys doing now? The PH adjustment might have saved them or they might actually have been affected too much so that even adjusting the PH might not have helped. But the next batch of shrimp should do much better.

I only see 2 little guys left as of this morning, so I lost one more. But now, I've been looking for them for hours and can't find them - I sure hope they're just molting and hiding.

Getting the pH down was a little more complicated than I expected and got a very good lesson on the law of diminishing returns - the lower I get, the harder it is to change. Last week, I increased the distilled water ratio in the change water, but as you know, if I'm only doing 10 - 15% water changes, it's not much of a dent. So I removed some of the water during the week and replaced it with distilled.

I did a bigger water change this week though not exactly full bore; balancing between not disturbing them too much vs. doing something extreme. Yes, I've been fearful to jump straight in, even while understanding the shrimp should do much better in a lower pH. Got to 7.2, which I realize is still not low enough - a partial prep anyways, for the female who'll have her shrimplets this weekend - so need to leave things alone just now. I have another female that got pregnant last week, but again, an even lower egg count. I first saw her with about 7 eggs. She's down to 3 so she may very well end up not having any shrimplets; I'll just have to wait and see. If I had to put a positive spin on this, at least the Bumblebees are not running me out of house and home like the Cherries were . Anyway, I'll be more prepared for the next time around.

No, no mathematics involved. My gut feeling told me that with your water parameters that ratio might be a good starting point.

Gut feeling, huh? I pictured a Johnny Carson scenario with the turban (another hat!) on, guessing what was contained in the envelope ...

Things will definitely improve. They have improved tremendously for me already so that I should be having enough offspring of these acid water species to offer them to the public soon (2-3 months).

There are numerous references to your wanting to offer various shrimp to the public, going quite far back and I had been wondering what the hold up was. So now we know! Well, along with the public getting access to home-bred shrimp, there's access to a built in guide as well. I've been impressed by the foresight - many of the goals and wishes for this forum and the shrimp hobby in general that you had when you first started this site is the same today as it was yesterday. There's a consistent theme that runs throughout this place. You must have had one heck of a lucid moment way back when . Okay, I'll stop now, lest your multifarious hats no longer fits your head.

Oh, one more thing. I've been developing some observations concerning shrimp turning blue. I think it might have been Jackie? who first mentioned that she thought there might be a connection to some shrimp turning blue when the pH changes, especially toward the down scale. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find where this was stated so can't confirm who mentioned it.

Anyhow, I have been observing the same thing. My BB's already have a tendency to turn bluish on their underside (right about where the appendages come out), a tendency that comes and goes. I used to notice they would get a hint of blue after water changes (probably a slight change in pH and possibly other parameters). Now since doing the lower pH'd water changes, I see that the female BB's have the blue to a more extensive degree than usual. So I was thinking that that might be a partial explanation of why, when some shrimps are first procured, that they might turn blue, or are already blue, only to have it disappear after some days or some weeks. Anyway, thought I'd add this bit of info in case anyone else can make a correlation or if this is just an isolated phenomena that is happening to me. This is presuming the shrimp has a "normal" color to begin with and presuming no tinting by humans has been involved.

-GB

[Marc]

Hi,
I'm new on this forum.

Interesting exchange on water parameters and preparation.

To contribute to the topic :

I read in aquarium fish breeding articles that the best water to breed them is to use RO or distilled water, and add in it special sea water salts (or sea water) to reach a 2% dilution of the sea water. That would be 7 gr of salt for 10 liters of RO water (sorry I won't ever master the gallons).

It was said in those articles that the Na and Cl were enough at those concentrations for the ion balance of those very soft-water fish, and that the other ions in the mix prevented any carency.

I guess that this 2% dilution of sea water is for fish that require extremely soft water, and that for our shrimp species, concentrations up to 5% should be OK. Anyway, that way you won't give any tap water to your shrimps, so no chloramine.

I myself bought 10 BB shrimps a week ago and put them in my 250 l tank, that has very soft water, a lot of plants, very few fish (wild caught Rasbora, guppy and Copella), and 10 Caridina sp. zeylanica. My soft water comes from a natural pond in a woodland on acidic substrate. It has so little calcium that my melanoides tuberculata don't grow a complete shell (they loose the their shell). I guess that my pH is acidic and that my nitrate level is low because of the many plants, but I have never tested it. Maybe I should.

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi Marc, welcome aboard!

Thanks for your contribution - may I ask what "carency" means? I can't find it in my dictionary. As for the tap water, yes, I do have to use water conditioner to rid of chlorine/chloramines.

That's very cool you have some wild caught fish there. I was very curious to know whether there are any concerns with natural pond water in terms of accidently introducing something unwanted in your tank, ie., creepy crawlies and other unexpected tiny things? This is, of course, beyond my curiosity of the logistics of lugging the water home, though I guess it's not that much different from me lugging the large container of distilled water home from the grocery store .

Congrats on your new Bumblebees, your tank conditions (soft, acidic) sounds ideal. You'll probably get some pregnant ones within a month or two. I would be very interested to know how yours do - please keep us updated.

-GB

[Marc]

Sorry about carency. I meant deficiency. You think you speak english and then you don't.

About the wild-caught fish, I had the chance to travel in several tropical countries with bird-watchers in the past years, and to bring back fish (nothing fancy). My experience is that they are very hardy and were never sick. It is in fact quite safe because these fish grow in good and very natural conditions, and in huge volumes of water. Add to that that the water is flowing and that sick fish disapear very fast because of predators, and the bugs are virtually absent. On the contrary, captivity-raised fish are always crowded and in less natural conditions, be it water quality, cleanliness, food quality. Consanguinity could also play a role.

About pond-water, it's actually a small lake on acidic clay and acidic very pure sand inside a pourly growing woodland, and well protected against agricultural pesticides. There is some fish inside (really not much), but in 4 years, I never brought any disease back with the water.

Marc

[Mustafa]

Getting the pH down was a little more complicated than I expected and got a very good lesson on the law of diminishing returns - the lower I get, the harder it is to change. Last week, I increased the distilled water ratio in the change water, but as you know, if I'm only doing 10 - 15% water changes, it's not much of a dent. So I removed some of the water during the week and replaced it with distilled.

Good! Just continue. You could actually do the 10-15% water changes every day to get the ph down more quickly. Daily small changes like that won't shock the shrimp at all.

Yes, I've been fearful to jump straight in, even while understanding the shrimp should do much better in a lower pH.

Just to ease your mind, when I use acid in my crystal red, bee, bumblebee and tiger shrimp tanks the PH sometimes drops from 6.9-7.0 to 6.0-6.5 immediately! The shrimp don't seem to care and graze on. (Disclaimer...I don't necessarily recommend dropping PH that suddenly by that much). However, in your case adding distilled water changes conductivity/TDS (total dissolved solids) and this affects the osmotic pressure in fish and shrimp cells. So, changing a little bit a day is still better than changing a huge amount of the water. So I correct myself. I was not thinking about the osmotic pressure issue.

Got to 7.2, which I realize is still not low enough - a partial prep anyways, for the female who'll have her shrimplets this weekend - so need to leave things alone just now. I have another female that got pregnant last week, but again, an even lower egg count. I first saw her with about 7 eggs. She's down to 3 so she may very well end up not having any shrimplets; I'll just have to wait and see.

Keep reporting back on your progress with them!

If I had to put a positive spin on this, at least the Bumblebees are not running me out of house and home like the Cherries were . Anyway, I'll be more prepared for the next time around.

Believe it or not, you will most likely have the exact same "problem" (i.e. shrimp population explosion) with the bumblebees once everything is to their liking. After all, they do reproduce en masse in their natural habitats and there is no reason why they should not do the same in home aquaria once the right conditions are given. The Red Cherries just much more adaptable to a wider range of water parameters so they seem like they are more fertile.

Gut feeling, huh? I pictured a Johnny Carson scenario with the turban (another hat!) on, guessing what was contained in the envelope ...

Yes, I am thinking about becoming a hobby magician, and soothsayer too! Who needs scientific evidence or scientific methods? It's alll magic right?

There are numerous references to your wanting to offer various shrimp to the public, going quite far back and I had been wondering what the hold up was. So now we know!

Yes, that's the hold up. Trying to breed hundreds and thousands of Crystal Reds, Tigers, bee shrimp, bumblebees etc. every month won't work until you get the water parameters right. And I really need to breed that many about every month or two to be able to offer them to the public on a continuous basis. The irony is that now that I have "mastered" NYC water, I will most likely be moving out to the west (southern california or Arizona) in about a year and a half. It's all for the better though...there'll be much more space for shrimp and fish breeding out there than on this piece of rock called Manhattan...LOL. I'll be setting up hundreds of tanks and probably some ponds, too, in the next few years, so this is all just the *very* beginning.

Well, along with the public getting access to home-bred shrimp, there's access to a built in guide as well.

That's the least I can do. I just can't sit here and watch my shrimp die out there because people do not have the right information at hand. So, I just *have* to provide this information...can't help it. LOL

I've been impressed by the foresight - many of the goals and wishes for this forum and the shrimp hobby in general that you had when you first started this site is the same today as it was yesterday. There's a consistent theme that runs throughout this place. You must have had one heck of a lucid moment way back when

.

Yes, the goals and wishes are still pretty much the same. That's the way it will stay. I'm not much into "commercial embellishment" or propagation of positive sounding misinformation just to make a quick buck. That's just not my style. I want truthful information to be disseminated, even if that means that a few "holy cows" need to be slaughtered and some not so decent practices exposed.

Okay, I'll stop now, lest your multifarious hats no longer fits your head.

No, no..continueeeee!!!! Haha...just kidding.

Oh, one more thing. I've been developing some observations concerning shrimp turning blue. I think it might have been Jackie? who first mentioned that she thought there might be a connection to some shrimp turning blue when the pH changes, especially toward the down scale. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find where this was stated so can't confirm who mentioned it.

--Hmmm...water parameters might have something to do with shrimp coloration. I know a guy in Europe who keeps Sri Lanka dwarfs in really acid water on a peat substrate. He says that his shrimp are all dark brown instead of see-through. The water parameters might have something to do with the coloration, although the shrimp might just be adjusting their coloration to the brownish peat for camouflage purposes.

Anyhow, I have been observing the same thing. My BB's already have a tendency to turn bluish on their underside (right about where the appendages come out), a tendency that comes and goes. I used to notice they would get a hint of blue after water changes (probably a slight change in pH and possibly other parameters). Now since doing the lower pH'd water changes, I see that the female BB's have the blue to a more extensive degree than usual. So I was thinking that that might be a partial explanation of why, when some shrimps are first procured, that they might turn blue, or are already blue, only to have it disappear after some days or some weeks.

Hmmm...that's strange. I've never seen any blue whatsoever on any kind of bumblebee shrimp. Can you try to take a picture of that if that happens again? Blues don't come out that well on pictures, but maybe you'll have some luck.


Take care,
Mustafa

[Mustafa]

Hi,
I'm new on this forum.

Hi Mark! Welcome to the forum!

I read in aquarium fish breeding articles that the best water to breed them is to use RO or distilled water, and add in it special sea water salts (or sea water) to reach a 2% dilution of the sea water. That would be 7 gr of salt for 10 liters of RO water (sorry I won't ever master the gallons).

Hmm...that sounds like that's ill-informed advice. And knowing the state of the shrimp hobby in the world in general I would not be surprised if this person has never bred a single bumblebee shrimp. Adding 7 grams of sea salt to 10 liters of RO water will totally negate everything you wanted from RO water, that is soft, low conductivity (or low total dissolved solids) and low ph water. The salt will increase, hardness, conductivity and ph tremendously. So, that advice seems bogus to me.

It was said in those articles that the Na and Cl were enough at those concentrations for the ion balance of those very soft-water fish, and that the other ions in the mix prevented any carency.

Again...see above...I don't know of any acid water fish breeder (as there aren't many shrimp breeders) who add sea salt to their RO water. You can mix the RO back with tap water to control the level of hardness or conductivity...that's about it.

I guess that this 2% dilution of sea water is for fish that require extremely soft water, and that for our shrimp species, concentrations up to 5% should be OK. Anyway, that way you won't give any tap water to your shrimps, so no chloramine.

Chloramine is no issue at all thanks to products like seachem prime. Plus, RO water is not pure water so it does not need any additions for soft/acid water species of shrimp and fish. I don't see the logic anyway behind saying that shrimp can somehow tolerate more salt than fish. Folliwing the "salt advice" will kill any shrimp species that is used to low conductivity, low ph water over the long run (and often even over the short run).

I myself bought 10 BB shrimps a week ago and put them in my 250 l tank, that has very soft water, a lot of plants, very few fish (wild caught Rasbora, guppy and Copella), and 10 Caridina sp. zeylanica. My soft water comes from a natural pond in a woodland on acidic substrate. It has so little calcium that my melanoides tuberculata don't grow a complete shell (they loose the their shell). I guess that my pH is acidic and that my nitrate level is low because of the many plants, but I have never tested it. Maybe I should.

Yes, you should test it. That's a requirement in breeding any aquatic animal. You absolutely need to know your water parameters. If you water is really as soft and acidic as you describe, then just leave it like that. Don't follow the foolish advice of adding sea salt to the water...trust me on that.

[Mustafa]

About the wild-caught fish, I had the chance to travel in several tropical countries with bird-watchers in the past years, and to bring back fish (nothing fancy). My experience is that they are very hardy and were never sick. It is in fact quite safe because these fish grow in good and very natural conditions, and in huge volumes of water. Add to that that the water is flowing and that sick fish disapear very fast because of predators, and the bugs are virtually absent. On the contrary, captivity-raised fish are always crowded and in less natural conditions, be it water quality, cleanliness, food quality.

I would not generalize like that. If you catch your own wild fish and shrimp, then yes, they should be in very good condition, although there is still the risk of introducing pathogens into your tank. However, not everyone has a tropical river or lake nearby, so when I and others are referring to "wild caught" or "imported" shrimp we talk about animals that have been kept in very bad conditions in the countries they were caught in. I am talking about thousands of animals in tiny little tanks. That's disease paradise. Many of these animals die right there without leaving the country. Then, the survivors have to through the shipping stress...hundreds of animals stuck into little bags and sent overseas. Again, many times half or more of those shrimp (and even fish in some cases) die in transit. The survivors are then placed into less than adequate wholesaler and dealer tanks who try to sell as many of them before they all die. So, that's reality with animals.

In contrast, captive bred animals are usually of much better quality *if* bought directly from the breeder as the breeder has to keep perfect or close to perfect water conditions for his animals to reproduce. So, if he/she does not keep healthy, happy animals, he won't get any offspring. Hence, she animals you buy from a *reputable* breeder are usually top notch. This applies to both fish and shrimp in my experience.

[GunmetalBlue]

Sorry about carency. I meant deficiency. You think you speak english and then you don't.

You speak English very well! Especially if considering it's not your native tongue. English was not my first language, but have spoken it since childhood and can no longer speak another. Language is definitely something you have to keep at, or else you lose it and forget most of it.

My experience is that they are very hardy and were never sick. It is in fact quite safe because these fish grow in good and very natural conditions, and in huge volumes of water. Add to that that the water is flowing and that sick fish disapear very fast because of predators, and the bugs are virtually absent.

Yes, I see your point how nature takes care of itself very nicely. Most of us unfortunately, are so far away from such things; even something like your pond. Over here, we have some brackish-water nature reserves (wetlands) near us, but the water doesn't look too good; it probably has a lot of oil and other pollutants in it. However, it's nice that those wetlands attract a lot of migrating birds.

in your case adding distilled water changes conductivity/TDS (total dissolved solids) and this affects the osmotic pressure in fish and shrimp cells. So, changing a little bit a day is still better than changing a huge amount of the water. So I correct myself. I was not thinking about the osmotic pressure issue.

Do you by any chance know the amount of permeability of shrimp eggs to its outside environment? It would seem there would at least be some exchange of oxygen perhaps? (I'm just guessing here)

As to the eggs that were due, I'm afraid things did not go well - the eggs are gone, but no shrimplets. I did expect this though, because the day previous to the loss, I saw that the eggs had become cloudy. I kind of figured the unhatched shrimplets had died ... and so it probably was more of a "dropping" of eggs, rather than a hatching of eggs. Of course I'm disappointed, but it's not as painful as when shrimplets die, so I guess if they have to go, better earlier than later - I hope the way I said that came out sounding all right. So as Bocher says, "the waiting starts again."

Believe it or not, you will most likely have the exact same "problem" (i.e. shrimp population explosion) with the bumblebees once everything is to their liking.

Ahh, I really need to believe that just now, LOL. Yes, one day, I want to see myself separating them all according to sex so that they WON'T reproduce ...

The irony is that now that I have "mastered" NYC water, I will most likely be moving out to the west (southern california or Arizona) in about a year and a half. It's all for the better though...there'll be much more space for shrimp and fish breeding out there than on this piece of rock called Manhattan...LOL. I'll be setting up hundreds of tanks and probably some ponds, too, in the next few years, so this is all just the *very* beginning.

If S. CA: If you haven't been driving for a while, wait till you start driving some of our streets and freeways ...

If Arizona: Oh gee, same state as AZ G ... Can two fit? I'll take those ringside seat tickets now.

Actually I do recall you mentioning a looong time ago that you were interested in heading out west - you sure have a long attention span! Hundreds of tanks and possibly some ponds, eh? Yes, I guess the here and now IS just the *very* beginning, LOL. WOW! All the best wishes to you on all this.

Hmmm...that's strange. I've never seen any blue whatsoever on any kind of bumblebee shrimp. Can you try to take a picture of that if that happens again? Blues don't come out that well on pictures, but maybe you'll have some luck.

I'll replicate here from an earlier page a pic that was taken the following weeks after I got them; they turned the most blue at that time:


Okay, I already know this site [where the following picture came from..edited] has some incorrect info; not the point of discussion, rather, I wanted to show a blue colored Bumblebee picture:




Mustafa, please feel free to delete the link after seeing it, if it's an improper link for here. About the pic though, I have NO idea if anything has been done to the shrimp, but what I recognize is that same "inky blue" tint. This is just my opinion, but I suspect that if nothing has been done to them, that they will most likely turn back to their normal color after one has had them for a while in stable water parameters; at least that has been my experience with shrimp turning blue.

Also recall a quote by Kenshin, "Some of them have a tinted blue on their body (seems like it is still stressed - "from GunMetal Blue previous post/experiences") from this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=7675&highlight=#7675

I didn't take any new pics, but found some older ones that I hope you get the idea what it can look like. I really don't think it's just my imagination ... My BB's nowadays typically turn blue on the underside, below their head and about where the appendages come out. I thought at first it was stress related ... It could still be, however, for me anyways, it hasn't been lethal - the shrimp still act normally when they have the blue tint, and like I said, it seems to happen when the pH gets changed, but of course, it could be related to other factors involved in a water change, the exact cause is not known by me at this time.








Funny that I'm still on topic - Bumblebee Color Variations, heh.

In contrast, captive bred animals are usually of much better quality *if* bought directly from the breeder as the breeder has to keep perfect or close to perfect water conditions for his animals to reproduce. So, if he/she does not keep healthy, happy animals, he won't get any offspring. Hence, she animals you buy from a *reputable* breeder are usually top notch. This applies to both fish and shrimp in my experience.

This type of battle rages on, mostly behind the scenes but sometimes in front of, for other kinds of animals, too - for instance, the smaller mammals. The big commercial breeders vs. private breeders. In this case, the big commercial breeders will be guilty of poor breeding practices, overcrowding, disease, deplorable living conditions, poor shipping practices, etc.

The difference though with shrimp is that what we would call the "commercial breeders" in the traditional strict sense, are not actually breeding them, except perhaps, for something like the Cherry; the rest are commodities removed from the wild, shipped to one place, shipped again - the next time, perhaps to overseas destinations.

So in the shrimp world, part of the differentiation is importation "wild-caught" vs. breeder. Another differentiation may be the direct dealing, from breeder to shrimp hobbyist, whereas importers are concerned about shipping only to stores.

I don't think anyone has yet undertaken to breed all the shrimp to be sold, at least on a more massive scale with numerous species, to be sold directly to the public yet. Apparently you might be the first, Mustafa? Not that I know what all goes on out there ... I'm mostly in a microcosm, concerning myself about my few shrimps and the concerns of fellow shrimpers like myself.

-GB

[Mustafa]

Do you by any chance know the amount of permeability of shrimp eggs to its outside environment? It would seem there would at least be some exchange of oxygen perhaps? (I'm just guessing here)

I don't know exact permeability numbers and I don't think any studies have been done on that specifically concerning shrimp eggs, but yes, the eggs do require oxygen. That's why the females shuffle their eggs around with their pleopods all the time.

As to the eggs that were due, I'm afraid things did not go well - the eggs are gone, but no shrimplets.

--Sorry to hear that. It's all part of the learning experience. On the bright side, now that I have my water parameters correct, I am seeing offspring in my crystal red and tiger shrimp tanks again. By the way, if you have any drift wood or similar tannin releasing organic materials in your tank, remove them immediately. Most acid water shrimp do not seem to like tannins in their water and their hatchlings die immediately.

If S. CA: If you haven't been driving for a while, wait till you start driving some of our streets and freeways ...

--Hehe...I've driven California roads many times before, including southern california roads. Not that bad compared to other places at which I have driven a car: Mexico, Jamaica, Turkey...can you say crater sized potholes and cars passing you left and right on a two lane street with oncoming traffic? LOL So, I think I'll be happy on Souther California roads.

If Arizona: Oh gee, same state as AZ G ... Can two fit? I'll take those ringside seat tickets now.

--Haha...keep in mind that I lived in Tucson, Arizona between 1995 and 2000. They are located in some tiny town near Tucson, but I did not know of them back them. Either way, imported shrimp are no competition whatsoever to captive bred ones, so I don't consider them competition. I'm in the business of selling top healthy shrimp and back it up with a live arrival guarantee, not in the business of importing half-dead shrimp and trying to sell them off before they all die on me. So, we are in two completely different industries.

Okay, I already know this site [where the following picture came from..edited] has some incorrect info; not the point of discussion, rather, I wanted to show a blue colored Bumblebee picture:

--that's not a bumblebee shrimp though. that just shows you that people are very lax with naming shrimp. I believe that the exporter in indonesia called them "bumblebee" shrimp since he sent me pictures of this shrimp offering them to sell them to me, too.

Mustafa, please feel free to delete the link after seeing it, if it's an improper link for here.

--I prefer changing links so it does not violate any rules. Luckily it's possible to just post the picture (using the img tags) instead of the whole link to the commercial website. plus, I can use my own judgment to decide if links are appropriate or not. The main reason why I don't want anything commercial in the forum, including links to commercial sites, is to prevent people advertising for themselves or their friends under various usernames. That kind of stuff happens in other forums all the time.

About the pic though, I have NO idea if anything has been done to the shrimp, but what I recognize is that same "inky blue" tint. This is just my opinion, but I suspect that if nothing has been done to them, that they will most likely turn back to their normal color after one has had them for a while in stable water parameters; at least that has been my experience with shrimp turning blue.

That blue looks very fake. By the way, the bluish colors you posted of your bumblebees are stress related. I've seen that before but it's so little blue, more of blue shine than a real color, that I never considered calling my bumblebees bluish.

Also recall a quote by Kenshin, "Some of them have a tinted blue on their body (seems like it is still stressed - "from GunMetal Blue previous post/experiences") from this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=7675&highlight=#7675

There you go, stress!

This type of battle rages on, mostly behind the scenes but sometimes in front of, for other kinds of animals, too - for instance, the smaller mammals. The big commercial breeders vs. private breeders. In this case, the big commercial breeders will be guilty of poor breeding practices, overcrowding, disease, deplorable living conditions, poor shipping practices, etc.

This can be problem with shrimp, too. However, shrimp don't lend themselves to being overcrowded and kept under less than optimal conditions since they stop reproducing at best and start dying at worst.

the rest are commodities removed from the wild, shipped to one place, shipped again - the next time, perhaps to overseas destinations.

Yes, unfortunately that's the case. There are usually more steps involved though. Usually there are low paid "collectors", which are locals collecting shrimp from the wild. They then transport the shrimp in buckets to the exporter. This can take a whole day or several days depending on how these people get there (horse, car, on foot...etc). Then the shrimp are shipped to what is called a "transshipper" in the US. It's an operation that just imports and immediately resends shrimp and fish. Then, the animals are sent to wholesale operations. Finally the shrimp end up in store tanks. Only a fraction of the shrimp survive and the ones that do survive are in the worst condition imaginable and will most likely die within days or weeks.

I don't think anyone has yet undertaken to breed all the shrimp to be sold, at least on a more massive scale with numerous species, to be sold directly to the public yet. Apparently you might be the first, Mustafa?

Yes, I am the first one. It's been quite a learning experience just keeping populations of so many shrimp varieties alive and reproducing in captivity. I still have and breed most of the shrimp varieties listed on my shrimp varieties page. I just don't offer them since I have not managed to breed them in very large numbers yet. But that's changing with every species as we speak. Experience really counts and that's my advantage.