Concern about phosphate level.

Oleg · Post by **Oleg** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:36 pm

In my planted tank I am trying to keep a pretty high phosphate level, 1 - 2 ppm. This level is no problem for fish though.
Does anyone keep Red Cherries or other shrimps in such high phosphate level? Any info will be much appreciated!

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:36 pm

I never measure for phosphate in my tanks so I can't give you a definite answer. As with anything, too much of a good thing can turn into a bad thing. The phosphate is definitely not anywhere near a problem for shrimp as ammonia, copper and nitrite are.

Mustafa

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:54 pm

Its been some time since this post was last responded too. I'm wondering if any of you folks that are having killer success with breeding red cherries could test their tanks for phosphate and see what it is.

My RCS seem healthy enough, they are active and eat just fine, but they just don't have eggs all that often and I'm sure not getting the results that some of you are.

I've been using a phosphate buffer (ProperpH 7.5) and this results in a phosphate level of around 2 PPT. I'm switching over to a non-phosphate buffer to see if that will help and am lowering my phosphates using water changes and a phosphate sponge. How low should I go?

Post by **Mustafa** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:38 am

I don't think phosphate is your problem as I have 2PPM and above in my Red Cherry tanks, too, due to high phosphate levels out of my tap and also heavy feeding. It must be some other water parameter issue.

Why don't you just try establishing a new tank with heavy aeration (bubbles) and possibly some baking soda to raise your kh a little (4-5 should be good enough)? The heavy aearation will drive out most of the CO2 out of the water and your PH will be pretty high even with soft, low KH water.

Give it a shot.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:48 am

I didn't say 2 PPM, I said 2 PPT. After a lot of work I am down to around 50 ppm, but the BBA is still growing.

I found this article, it it totally wacked out, or might it work? I would remove the shrimp first I think until the water cleared up:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00373.html

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:35 pm

OK, I can now totally confirm that high phosphates prevent egg production in both amano and cherry shrimp. High levels don't seem to kill them our right, but they are not very active and they don't reproduce.

Now that levels in my tanks and <2 ppm they are both producing eggs like crazy. My current comfort level is <3 ppm phosphate and <20 ppm nitrate. If you are growing microfood like moina, get the phosphates <2 ppm and nitrates <5 ppm. Rotifers don't seem to care about either nitrates or phosphates. Hardy little buggers they are.

Post by **Mustafa** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:15 pm

How do you even measure phosphate in parts per thousand? My test kit only goes to 10 ppm. Yes, I can confirm now that shrimp feel "uncomfortable" at phosphate levels over 5-10 ppm in my tanks although they keep reproducing. High nitrates stress shrimp out too.

I looked at some habitat data for different shrimp species and the reported nitrates and phosphates are all between 0 and 1 mg/l (=ppm). I noticed with my shrimp that their coloration starts fading when nitrates are too high and they start losing appetite. So, it's really best to keep nitrates and phosphates at 0 or close to zero if you want your shrimp as healthy and as colorful as possible. I realize that conflicts with some dosing regimens of planted tank people who like to keep nitrate levels at 10ppm or so. But let's look at it this way. If you actually have enough shrimp in your planted tank then THEY will be your nitrate producers (via the filter bacteria) and you do not need to dose any nitrate at all. Trust me, if you have hundreds of shrimp in your tank, then they can produce tons of nitrate if fed lots of food. One of my Red Cherry tanks (with probably way over 1000 shrimp of all sizes in it) shoots up to over 100ppm if I don't change the water for 4-5 days!

So, here's an idea for the planted aquaria people. Just keep tons of shrimp in your tank and forget about nitrate and phosphate dosing! The downside is that you would need to make much more frequent water changes to keep the nitrates and phosphates down for the sake of the shrimp. Otherwise you'll be at over 100ppm in no time if you have a very high shrimp load.

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:28 pm

As to how to test for high phosphate levels- Dilution is the solution. Mix it 100:1 or 1000:1 with pure water and test the mix. You then just multiply the test results by the dilution level.

I agree with you 100% about ferts in the water. Loads of animals are the best bet with the exception of iron and trace minerals. Sure no reason to add nitrates or phosphase if you have lots of animals and feed them. If your plants are not as green as they should be it is probably iron, and not something else they need.

Test early & often. Do the water changes at least once a week, don't slack off. Seachem Prime or Amquel + will eliminate the nitrates, but dilution is the least expensive way to reduce phosphates if plants can't keep up with it. If you get your P-N-K out of balance, black beard algea will appear at your door (& all over it), so be ware!

Post by **Mustafa** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:29 pm

badflash wrote:As to how to test for high phosphate levels- Dilution is the solution. Mix it 100:1 or 1000:1 with pure water and test the mix. You then just multiply the test results by the dilution level.

Ah...I see.

Good idea!

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:47 pm

OK, I've got 4 female cherries carrying eggs and 3 more female amanos about to burst with eggs down there back. Their color is better than its been in months. Get rid of the Phosphates, get eggs!

Anyone that is getting started, forget phosphate based pH buffers. Get a phosphate test kit. If you shart showing phosphates, take evasive action! (ie- water changes).

tnnlynch · Post by **tnnlynch** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:22 pm

Interesting thread. I had a large number of rcs and mts snails in my planted tank that died off almost over night. I couldn't figure out what happened so I have never restocked. I have one large apple snail that blissfully continues roaming the tank.

It was however roughly about the time when I started a new higher dosage fertilizer program. My P04 is well over 5ppm (I will have to try a % test to see how high) and I usually aim for 20-30 ppm nitrates. It is a high light (330W), pressurized CO2 fed heavily planted tank that uses ferts very quickly.

From what you are saying shrimp are not a good idea for this tank due to my dosing regimen.

Tom

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:51 am

That is my experience. Are you really sure you need your nitrates & phosphates so high? More is not always better.

tnnlynch · Post by **tnnlynch** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:12 pm

I aim for 20-30 ppm of Nitrates but my tank is very high growth and I usually run at 10-15 ppm. At least that is what it tests too. I don't add anything to raise the PO4 on purpose. I'm still trying to figure out what has raised that so high as my tap water is not that bad.

Tom

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:12 pm

Are you buffering to control pH? What else are you putting in the tank? How often do you do water changes & how much?

badflash · Post by **badflash** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:20 am

Just a month after getting the phosphates down I've now been treated to a load of cherry shrimp babies with 3 more litters on the way! This sure looks like it was my problem all along.

Petshrimp.com Discussion Forum

Concern about phosphate level.

Concern about phosphate level.

Phosphates-How High Is Too High?

Phosephate levels