Adding nitrate

[Shady]

I searched, but since this forum is primarily shrimp, and not plant tanks with shrimp, I couold not find much on additives to raise nitrate for heavily planted tanks.

I have heavily planted tanks with Amanos and high light and CO2 injection/pH controllers. My plants frequently experience die offs or halted growth from low nutrients. I've added plant food tabs (20-10-5 plus trace) to the substrate with good rooted plant growth and no detrimental effects on my Amanos. My epiphytic plants, such as the Java Fern on my driftwood haven't done well until I recently started using Kent Organica Nitro+, which is a 1-0-0 Sodium Nitrate additive. I've added about 2ppm, the plants are doing well and the shrimp are breeding (males are piggy back on the female like crazy). I'd like to possibly go higher on the nitrate for the following reasons: 1) most nitrate test kits don't read well below 5ppm, 2) most planted tanks do well with a "reserve" of 5ppm NO3, 3) nitrate is relatively harmless at concentrations below 10ppm.

My question is, what documented literature, if any, exists on chronic nitrate toxicity on C. japonica or other freshwater shrimp?

Thanks!

[Newjohn]

Shady
As for documented literature, I can not provide .

From my experience with C. japonica, They Females will not carry eggs if the nitrates are to high. And if Shrimp are not carring eggs, they are not happy.

The question about Ferts and Shrimp, has been brought up before.

And it all depends on what you are trying to do.
Give the best conditions for the Shrimp.
Or, Best conditions for your plants and have a few Shrimp in your tank.

I have never tried to push the envelope, With the nitrates.

I hope some else can better
answer your question

John

[Neonshrimp]

I have not seen any documents myself but that does not mean they are not out there. What I have seen are post by shrimp keepers telling us about their personal experiences. They have a period of shrimp die off that they can not explain or do not understand. They state that water parameters are stable and normal and they have been treating the water the same way for a while now with "so named chemicals/ferts". At the moment the hobby is still young and we are learning as we go along. Who knows if you document your findings and submit it in writing you may be one of the first Thanks for sharing and hope it goes well for you.

[Shady]

THanks...experience is as good as documentation. It's just that I too have read the typical "the only nitrate that is safe is zero nitrate", followed by the guy who says "I get mating shrimp in 50ppm nitrate" about 100 times.

There is research on Daphnia and Ceriodaphnia that prove there is ZERO effect on reproduction below about 15ppm, and no direct health effects below 200ppm. But that's Daphnia, not shrimp (albeit somewhat related).

I think I'll gradually raise nitrates up to 5ppm, and if that has no negative effect on my shrimp, it'll keep my plants happy too. I would like to be at a level on my nitrate test kits where I know how much is getting used up by measuring. I can only do that at 5ppm

Thanks again. BTW, I have 7 Amanos left from about 40, but I just ordered another 40.

[eraserbones]

Shady --

I went through a similar process about a year ago, trying to gradually raise the nitrate levels in my planted tank to 10 ppm. About the time that the levels got in the neighborhood (which is to say, when my test kit started reading non-zero) I had a huge die-off of cherry shrimp. Indeed, I don't have any cherries left at all, thanks to that.

Of course, I'm not _certain_ that the nitrates caused the die-off, but there was a close correspondance.

My amanos in the same tank did just fine. From this I conclude that they have much higher nitrate tolerance -- it sort of makes sense to me (in an unscientific way) that they'd tolerate a wider range of water quality since they seem to inhabit many different environments in the wild.

If you're succeeding at maintaining a 2ppm nitrate level in your tank, then stick with it! My goal right now is to get decent plant growth and keep my kit reading at the bottom mark. Time will tell whether or not even that level (low but non-zero) is unhealthy for my snowballs.

[badflash]

My experience is that you need to keep the nitrates <5ppm and phosphates under 1 ppm. I think the phosphates are more of a problem than nitrates, but if you raise one you must raise the other or you get an algal explosion. My amanos did poorly and died off slowly at levels above 50ppm. Once I got the levels below 5ppm egg production of both cherries and amanos kicked in. After more than a year, I still have most of the survivors of my early learning curve.

If you want a heavily planted tank with shrimp, find plants that don't need ferts, otherwise you will sacrafice one for the other. Those folk that said they were doing fine with high nitrates had only short term success. You can sustain if only for a few months, then some sort of disaster take them out. Been there, done that.

[YuccaPatrol]

I agree with badflash that a heavily planted tank should contain plants that don't really need the ferts.

I know that doesn't give you a very long list of plants, but it is very do-able. Even if my plants grow slowly, I am patient and my planted show tank for shirmp looks great.

[Shady]

That's great advice. Yeah, I've read that as long as you have ANY nitrates, plants will be happy, so 2ppm is my cieling. As for plants that don't need ferts...not gonna happen with an Amano style aquarium, CO2 and high light...you NEED ferts, and fish, for some reason, don't provide enough in this tank (unlike my last tank which had pleanty of nitrogen.) And I grow stuff like stargrass, glossostigma, and diandra that turn to pulp without the right nutirents.

[badflash]

I grow java fern and java moss. Mine are very lush and I never fertilize. A big java fern is pretty awsome. Shrimp love it.

[yoink]

I keep the nitrate in my cherry breeding tank 15-20ppm and the phosphate between 1 and 2 ppm. I have never seen a die off of cherry shrimp, or even a slow in their reproduction for that matter. I think you should be fine adding nitrate and other ferts as long as the plants are taking up the nutrients and you are doing large water changes every week.

[badflash]

I keep the nitrate in my cherry breeding tank 15-20ppm and the phosphate between 1 and 2 ppm. I have never seen a die off of cherry shrimp, or even a slow in their reproduction for that matter. I think you should be fine adding nitrate and other ferts as long as the plants are taking up the nutrients and you are doing large water changes every week.

How long has your tank been running with the cherries?

I never did any study to see if the problem was nitrates or phosphates. I had both and was just happy to get any breeding going. Once you get it working, there is no need to fix it. I know that daphnia are a lot more sensitive to phosphate than nitrates, but as has been stated before, those are daphnia, not shrimp.

Shrimp production is highest with no measurable nitrates or phosphates, but if you are only looking to maintain a nice colony I'm sure there is a happy medium there someplace. I'm just not going to risk my shrimp to find out.

[YuccaPatrol]

Forgive me for not being a high-tech fert-using planted tank guy, but I had an idea.

I often read that people dose their ferts "weekly" or on some other similar regular schedule.

What if you divided the weekly dose into 7 daily doses? Your plants would get the same amount of ferts over time but you'd decrease the maximum concentration which might keep your shrimp happier.

[badflash]

I think this is just an issue of ease. Ideally you'd test the water and add only what you need. Lots easier to close your eyes and dump in some chemicals.

If you want to strike a balance testing is essential.

[yoink]

The tank has been running this way with the shrimp for about a year. I started with a dozen and would estimate I've had at least 600 go on to new homes. I have a couple hundred now. I dose 5ppm nitrate, 10ppm potassium, and ~.75 ppm phosphate two times a week. I also dose 1ml of flourish three times per week. I test the nitrate and phosphate about once a month to make sure the levels don't get out of hand.