In my 13g tank I have yellows, dark greens and malawas. I see saddles on all the yellow females, they're hard to spot on the malawas and greens, though, but I do see them on some malawas. I've seen only two berried malawas and two berried yellows during the several months I've had them. But no babies, so I'm assuming they're dropping their eggs. Why are they not berrying and why are the few that do dropping their eggs? I have a thriving RCS colony in my 20g, but I can't get anything from the females in the 13g. It's heavily planted with low light plants, I was dosing Flourish Comprehensive before switching to Root Medic in the past month, and I dose Flourish Excel. Parameters are a steady 0-0-<20, temp is 78-80, pH is 7.8, weekly 25-30% water changes, KH of 4, black sand substrate, two HOBs with pantyhose over the intakes and one sponge filter. There are fish in the tank, but they're tiny, Pygmy corys, sparkling gouramis, otos, but with the seven types of mosses and all the plants, there is plenty of cover for at least some babies to survive. It's frustrating to say the least.
-Lisa
-Lisa
Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
Moderator: Mustafa
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
There are various potential causes for your problems. First, I would lower your ph to around 7. This will happen automatically if you lower your KH to around 1. In my experience Ph levels that are too high can cause the problem you are describing. There are various ways of doing that, including using RO water to perform water changes. Another, more drastic method, is to use hydrochloric (muriatic) acid (perform a search in the forum for more on that). I have never used Flourish Ecxel but some people report problems with it in connection with shrimp. I would also ditch all other fertilizers in your shrimp tank. Fertilizing a shrimp tank tends to go wrong over the long term for most people. Finally, make sure that you have good aeration in your tank as shrimp require high oxygen levels.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
The pH and KH are the same in my 20g with the thriving RCS colony, but the nitrates are always higher. The only differences are that the 20g has artificial plants, bigger fish and a cuttle bone in the back to add some calcium to the water. Even the HOBs are the same brands, just smaller on the 13g. That's why I'm confused. If the pH and KH are so key, why do my RCS do so well in the same pH and KH that the yellows, dark greens and malawas aren't doing well in? I'll back off on the ferts and see if that makes a difference. If not, then I'll look into RO. How quickly should I expect to see changes?
-Lisa
-Lisa
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
First of all...with sparkling gouramis in the tank *no* shrimp baby will survive. Tiny invertebrates are the natural prey of this species...the fish will stalk and eat every single young shrimp. The pygmy cories also eat young shrimp by the way...I am speaking from personal experience.
Have you measured and compared those values *right now* with a reliable test kit? Water parameters can change dramatically over time, even if you put water from the same source in two different tanks. With such different nitrate concentrations both tanks can't have the same ph and kh values. Nitrate drives down the ph and eats away at the kh (which ultimately also goes down taking the ph with it) due to the fact that some of that nitrate you are measuring is nitric acid...a very strong acid. Kh and ph are directly dependent so two tanks with the same kh *cannot* have the same ph *if* one tank has a lot higher nitrate measurements. The same logic and mechanism applies to phosphate and phosphoric acid by the way. Your nitrate levels are way too high anyway...do some research on this forum (as in a few hours of research both in this forum and my articles on my website) and you'll find out more info about it.
Having said that...without actually being there and actually analyzing the problem I can only throw out some possible causes for your problems...essentially educated guesses. There seems to be quite a bit wrong with your tank. Changes don't happen overnight...it takes time. Most issues resolve when you just stop messing with the tank. Once the ph is at acceptable levels you just stop feeding, stop fertilizing..stop everything. Just sit there and wait...that's usually what works best.
Finally, I am not saying that high ph tanks can't work with shrimp...they can...and I've done it before. However, they tend to be more unstable as the toxic form of ammonia is more prevalent at higher ph levels. Really, really good filtration and plants/algae can help...but even plants don't grow all that well or even stop growing altogether at higher ph levels as they cannot take up micronutrients (mostly iron, which does not occur as free iron at such high ph) which are essential to growth and survival. If you have good plant growth at ph 7.8 then there is definitely something wrong with your measurements and/or your ph test kit.
Have you measured and compared those values *right now* with a reliable test kit? Water parameters can change dramatically over time, even if you put water from the same source in two different tanks. With such different nitrate concentrations both tanks can't have the same ph and kh values. Nitrate drives down the ph and eats away at the kh (which ultimately also goes down taking the ph with it) due to the fact that some of that nitrate you are measuring is nitric acid...a very strong acid. Kh and ph are directly dependent so two tanks with the same kh *cannot* have the same ph *if* one tank has a lot higher nitrate measurements. The same logic and mechanism applies to phosphate and phosphoric acid by the way. Your nitrate levels are way too high anyway...do some research on this forum (as in a few hours of research both in this forum and my articles on my website) and you'll find out more info about it.
Having said that...without actually being there and actually analyzing the problem I can only throw out some possible causes for your problems...essentially educated guesses. There seems to be quite a bit wrong with your tank. Changes don't happen overnight...it takes time. Most issues resolve when you just stop messing with the tank. Once the ph is at acceptable levels you just stop feeding, stop fertilizing..stop everything. Just sit there and wait...that's usually what works best.
Finally, I am not saying that high ph tanks can't work with shrimp...they can...and I've done it before. However, they tend to be more unstable as the toxic form of ammonia is more prevalent at higher ph levels. Really, really good filtration and plants/algae can help...but even plants don't grow all that well or even stop growing altogether at higher ph levels as they cannot take up micronutrients (mostly iron, which does not occur as free iron at such high ph) which are essential to growth and survival. If you have good plant growth at ph 7.8 then there is definitely something wrong with your measurements and/or your ph test kit.
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
I just tested both the 13g and 20g with an in-date API master kit and the API liquid KH test. pH in both tanks is 7.8, and I held both tubes up together and they were the same color. The KH in the 13g is 2 and the KH in the 20g is 3. I can never match the colors on the nitrate test to the card, but surprisingly, the 13g tube was a bit darker than the 20g, and they're not as red as the 40 but not as light as the 10. The nitrate in the 20g always runs higher because there are no plants and is usually heavily stocked. But I blame the higher nitrates in the 13g on the NPK ferts. So I'll stop the ferts.
The sparkling gouramis were a recent addition, within the last month. But the pygmy corys have been in there longer, and a batch of malawa babies and dark green babies have survived. I'm not saying you're wrong, but odd things happen in my tanks, like my shrimp surviving mini-cycles. I watched three-lined corys rummage right over top of newborn yellows and not eat them. I have a piece of driftwood with a cave-like cutout and a dense forest of lace java fern and an even denser forest of Xmas moss where the shrimp hang out. The plants are so dense that I can't even see the shrimp unless they're right on top of the leaves. The cave area is so large that two vampire shrimp and an amano can hide in there and not be seen. In addition to the driftwood, I have seven types of mosses (including the giant moss I bought from you
), so there are plenty of hiding places. Even more hiding places than the shrimp in the 20g. That tank currently has four peppered corys, three platys and six black harlequin rasboras, but it's been home to a betta that just looked at shrimp and didn't eat them, guppies, mollies, and a honey sunset gourami, and the shrimp have thrived through all of them. It's crazy, I know, but crazy stuff happens in my tanks.
-Lisa
The sparkling gouramis were a recent addition, within the last month. But the pygmy corys have been in there longer, and a batch of malawa babies and dark green babies have survived. I'm not saying you're wrong, but odd things happen in my tanks, like my shrimp surviving mini-cycles. I watched three-lined corys rummage right over top of newborn yellows and not eat them. I have a piece of driftwood with a cave-like cutout and a dense forest of lace java fern and an even denser forest of Xmas moss where the shrimp hang out. The plants are so dense that I can't even see the shrimp unless they're right on top of the leaves. The cave area is so large that two vampire shrimp and an amano can hide in there and not be seen. In addition to the driftwood, I have seven types of mosses (including the giant moss I bought from you
), so there are plenty of hiding places. Even more hiding places than the shrimp in the 20g. That tank currently has four peppered corys, three platys and six black harlequin rasboras, but it's been home to a betta that just looked at shrimp and didn't eat them, guppies, mollies, and a honey sunset gourami, and the shrimp have thrived through all of them. It's crazy, I know, but crazy stuff happens in my tanks.-Lisa
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
Is the point of the RO water to have a KH of 1 and a pH of 7? Or is there something else special about it? I just tested the water from my Brita filter and it's got a KH of 1 and a pH of 6.6. Is there a reason that I couldn't mix my tap water with water run through the Brita filter to get a pH of 7.0?
-Lisa
-Lisa
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
The pygmy cories aren't all that efficient at eating the babies (especially when there are lots of hiding places), but they will make a small dent in the population if they have a chance. They are also more predatory than the larger cories...that's why the pygmy cories swim around a lot in midwater(like "normal" fish) as that would be where they pick up micro-invertebrates in nature. The sparkling gourami, though, is a different story...it *will* find the last shrimp baby...even in a thick moss jungle...that's their job in nature and they are very good at it.
Of course having dense moss jungles helps with baby survival...no doubt about it. As for your water parameters...there is nothing special about the RO water..I just mentioned it as a means to lower your ph. The Brita will work just fine, too. You can even use pure Brita water...once the water is in your tank the ph will probably be around 7 anyway with a kh of 1. Ph doesn't have to be exactly 7...anywhere between 6.6 to 7.3 should do just fine. The measurements you took in both tanks make sense...one has a higher kh than the other but it also has a higher nitrate level. Hence the ph is approximately the same. What doesn't immediately make sense is the rather high ph level. When I get my tap water to about 2-3 kh my ph *even with heavy aeration* (which drives out the carbondioxide/carbonix acid) is maybe at around 7.3-7.6. However, when I used to live in NYC I my tap water had 0 to 1 kh and a ph of way over 7.6..approaching 8. That baffled me for a little while until I discovered that the water authority was adding sodium hydroxide to the water to increase ph. Sodium hydroxide does not appear to show up as "kh" in our test kits but it does contribute to alkalinity (kh is just part of alkalinity) and alkalinity is what ultimately determines ph. So..alkalinity was rather high but my kh test kit wasn't picking it up. Something similar may be going on with your tap water... Either way, it doesn't matter. Just concentrate on the ph, then and ignore the kh if you have such wacky values.
Of course having dense moss jungles helps with baby survival...no doubt about it. As for your water parameters...there is nothing special about the RO water..I just mentioned it as a means to lower your ph. The Brita will work just fine, too. You can even use pure Brita water...once the water is in your tank the ph will probably be around 7 anyway with a kh of 1. Ph doesn't have to be exactly 7...anywhere between 6.6 to 7.3 should do just fine. The measurements you took in both tanks make sense...one has a higher kh than the other but it also has a higher nitrate level. Hence the ph is approximately the same. What doesn't immediately make sense is the rather high ph level. When I get my tap water to about 2-3 kh my ph *even with heavy aeration* (which drives out the carbondioxide/carbonix acid) is maybe at around 7.3-7.6. However, when I used to live in NYC I my tap water had 0 to 1 kh and a ph of way over 7.6..approaching 8. That baffled me for a little while until I discovered that the water authority was adding sodium hydroxide to the water to increase ph. Sodium hydroxide does not appear to show up as "kh" in our test kits but it does contribute to alkalinity (kh is just part of alkalinity) and alkalinity is what ultimately determines ph. So..alkalinity was rather high but my kh test kit wasn't picking it up. Something similar may be going on with your tap water... Either way, it doesn't matter. Just concentrate on the ph, then and ignore the kh if you have such wacky values.
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
The wackiness has been an ongoing thing in my tanks. Get this: my pH doesn't drop overnight even though I have DIY CO2 in my 37g and no bubblers going. When I had even the slightest agitation, all the CO2 dissipated and my pH would rise back up to the 7.8 I get out of the tap. Makes no sense but I tested it three nights/mornings in a row.
I'll try the Brita water and stop the ferts to see if that helps. I might take the sparkling gouramis back and exchange them for something else like ember tetras. Would they be a major threat?
-Lisa
I'll try the Brita water and stop the ferts to see if that helps. I might take the sparkling gouramis back and exchange them for something else like ember tetras. Would they be a major threat?
-Lisa
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
Slightly old topic but I wanted to chime in after reading through it.
One of the likely causes (if not completely from the gourami) is the dense planting, especially of mosses. These are essentially living filters. Any detritus will get trapped in/around, and in particularly dense large bunches (such as your Xmas moss) you can actually get an almost anaerobic center where nasties get produced in large enough amounts to harm fish/inverts. What happens is the light and water flow is so low that the inside begins to die off and rot. It will look great from the outside but like cutting into a bad melon/apple it's rotting from the inside out. Trust me, I had a large bunch of Xmas moss in my home tank (fish only, no inverts) that when I decided to remove most of to get more light to the substrate I was shocked at just how much crud was trapped in the bundle and how quickly my phantom nitrAte issue went away (couldn't get below 40ppm no matter what I did and I do 50% water changes once a week).
So unless you are tearing apart the tank to gravel vac all of the gunk, there is no way you are able to adequately keep the nitrAte levels low. I have a piece of driftwood in my tank at home and every time I do a water change I lift the piece of wood and am shocked to see the huge amount of fish and plant waste that accumulates next to the wood. You could change water all day and not significantly effect the dissolved solids because these detritus is going to continuously break down and foul the water.
So ideally you need to get a new tank and set it up for just inverts. Otherwise I fear you are going to have a nice mixed fish/invert tank until the shrimp die of old age, are poisoned, or get eaten.
One of the likely causes (if not completely from the gourami) is the dense planting, especially of mosses. These are essentially living filters. Any detritus will get trapped in/around, and in particularly dense large bunches (such as your Xmas moss) you can actually get an almost anaerobic center where nasties get produced in large enough amounts to harm fish/inverts. What happens is the light and water flow is so low that the inside begins to die off and rot. It will look great from the outside but like cutting into a bad melon/apple it's rotting from the inside out. Trust me, I had a large bunch of Xmas moss in my home tank (fish only, no inverts) that when I decided to remove most of to get more light to the substrate I was shocked at just how much crud was trapped in the bundle and how quickly my phantom nitrAte issue went away (couldn't get below 40ppm no matter what I did and I do 50% water changes once a week).
So unless you are tearing apart the tank to gravel vac all of the gunk, there is no way you are able to adequately keep the nitrAte levels low. I have a piece of driftwood in my tank at home and every time I do a water change I lift the piece of wood and am shocked to see the huge amount of fish and plant waste that accumulates next to the wood. You could change water all day and not significantly effect the dissolved solids because these detritus is going to continuously break down and foul the water.
So ideally you need to get a new tank and set it up for just inverts. Otherwise I fear you are going to have a nice mixed fish/invert tank until the shrimp die of old age, are poisoned, or get eaten.
Re: Why are my females not berrying or dropping eggs?
I've made a lot of changes to this tank since I started this thread. But I think I've narrowed the cause to under-feeding. I was talking with a friend and he asked what I was feeding them. It got the gears turning and I realized that the females stopped berrying once I stopped overfeeding the fish. I was trying to make sure the otos had enough to eat after I upgraded the contents of a 5g that had plenty of algae to the 13g with no algae. So they got half a Hikari algae wafer everyday, and my females were berried then. But I cut back on the wafers once some more algae grew in the tank and that's when I stopped seeing berried females. So I've been feeding more, and I'm seeing some nice, fat saddles.
-Lisa
-Lisa